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The issue with Europe is whether European identity trumps national identity.

You and Barbara are prime examples of why this may happen.  You're Spanish, she's Czech and you live in London.  Now without the free movement of labor in Europe do to the EU would you all be where you're at now?

Now again, during the period before the First World War, there was a great deal of internal and extracontinental migration from Europe.  Hungarians moving to France, Poles to Germany, etc.  But those mass flows stopped after the First World War.

Few remember, that prior to the First World War, most international travel occured without passport including migration.  4 million Europeans migrated to Latin America between 1870-1914.  An even larger number went to the United States and Canada.

Ultimately, assmilation occurred.  I mean recognize the irony that Sarkozy is the grandson of Hungarian immgrants calling second generation Arabs and Africans "racaille."

But the EU is a case where you have the conscience construction of a transnational identity much like you had in the Holy Roman Empire prior to 1806. And in that case, sovereignity at the national level is limited.

So does the EU die, or does it grow into an explicit political union?  How many people have to be shifted around if the EU dissolves and suddenly all the Polish plumbers and Spanish polymaths are kicked out of the UK?

The whole other thing is that countries like the UK and Belgium are starting to show serious internal strains.  What happens if Flanders goes on it's own?  Scotland declares independence?  One thing is that in the case of serious military threats from say a resurgent Russia have to be dealt with either through a European military or dependence on through alliance with the US.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 at 02:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No quibble, just two datapoints for reference.

  1. Prior to the pass free period of 1870-1914 it was common that you needed internal passports to move about, unless you were of sufficiently high standing in society (~nobility). In Sweden this was handled by the (national) church. This became obsolete in the mid 19th century and thus passports were abolished. Of course freedom of movement is not absolute as we are reminded every time there is an EU summit. Just to pick an example, on route to the recent summit in northern Germany a swede was stopped in Denmark an ordered to return to Sweden when border guards found a tshirt from Piratbyrån (they are a lobby organisation) in his bag.

  2. Freedom of movement has existed between the Nordic countries since the 50ies. Do not know where this fits in the theories we are constructing here, but figured I would mention it.


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 at 03:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that the Pirate Party?  Are they illegal outside of Sweden or something?
by Zwackus on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 at 06:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is a different organisation. There are right now 5 different Pirate organisations in Sweden.

Piratbyrån - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Piratbyrån ("The Bureau of Piracy") is a Swedish organization (or think tank) established to support the individuals fighting against current ideas about intellectual property by sharing information and culture freely. Piratbyrån itself is not involved in illegal activities, but rather wishes to give another point of view about spreading information than the current lobby groups do.

The Pirate Bay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pirate Bay (often abbreviated TPB) is an Internet site that bills itself as "the world's largest BitTorrent tracker" and also serves as an index for .torrent files that it tracks. ThePirateBay.org is ranked 192 (as of October 6, 2007) in the Alexa ranking list of the world's most-visited internet sites.[1]

The Pirate Bay was started by the Swedish anti-copyright organization Piratbyrån ('The Pirate Bureau') in early 2004, but since October 2004 it has been a separate organization.

Pirate Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pirate Party (Swedish: Piratpartiet) is originally a political party in Sweden, which has given rise to groups with similar goals internationally. The party strives to reform laws regarding intellectual property, including copyright, patent and the protection of design. The agenda also includes support for a strengthening of the right to privacy, both on the Internet and in everyday life.

Young Pirate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Young Pirate(Ung Pirat) is the youth organisation of the Swedish Pirate Party. It was started in December 2006.

And there is also (but not on wikipedia yet) Piratbio - Pirate Cinema - that simply shows movies.

And none of the organisations are banned outside Sweden (afaik). There exist Pirate parties in a number of countries, ten or so EU countries, and Pirate Groups (similar to Piratbyrån) in at least Norway and Denmark. My take on it is that if you are young or poor (or both) and have anything (including a t-shirt) packed that can identify you as anti-establishment, freedom of movement does not exist during EU summits.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 at 09:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the clarification.  It's nice to know that equality under the law and free speech are alive and well.
by Zwackus on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 at 09:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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