European Tribune

Display:
Here you know a lot of stuff.. and my head does not explode..

Being employed is something objective... teh question is how we measure it.a. nd how e compare..

I mean.. if we agree ona definition it should be clear hat the number is...

the problem as always.. is how do you count those that do not fit your image... numbers would be ok but interpretations not...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:20:12 PM EST
is a reality, but the quality of the job is another matter.

Having a 20 hour/week job spread over two mornings and two evenings in the week is a "job", but the quality of life that goes with it can be quite varied.

Having benefits or not can change the picture.

Needing to pay for childcare or not changes the picture too.

... and so on.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely...

But I would be ahppy enough if at least the raw data would be unbiased.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the best you can do is figure out the total number of person-hours worked per year and the total payroll, and still you won't account for the underground economy, of course.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 06:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Total annual hours worked is the ultimate measure of employment, but it's just as hard to observe and measure.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 02:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Grey" economy is a big problem because its volume vary a lot between countries (for example, it is currently much higher in the eastern European countries). But it is by definition not measurable.

The best way to have an accurate measure of the employment rate would be to calculate it in full-time equivalent jobs.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 03:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, and what happens when you have two countries like France and the UK, the former with a 35-hour law and the latter with an exemption from the 48-hour maximum in the European Working time directive? "Full-time equivalent" is not a good measure. Average number of hours worked per person per week is better.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 04:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on your point of view: is working a large number of hours a good or a bad thing? If I can support a decent, comfortable level of life on  twenty hours a week am I better off than if I work 35 hours or not?

The whole debate about employment is tied up with different framings. The standard framing is that low numbers of people working is a bad thing because it means that the economic resources of the country are being under-utilised. From the point of view of individuals the picture is very different.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 04:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I beg to differ. First, we are measuring employment and, as Colman says, if a full-time job allows to earn decent wages (at least the minimum wage), it doesn't matter if it's 35 hours or more.

Second measuring the hours worked is tricky, because not all the real hours worked are recorded and overtime is not taken into account in some countries.  

And only the hours worked per year make sense, because you have a wide spectrum of working time schemes, some of them making people work 50 hours a week in summer and 20 in winter, or any other combination (and, believe me, there are many of them!).

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:12:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then what matters is the ratio of payroll to living wage, right?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the useful measures from a democratic point of view are:

  1. Median disposable income, and standard deviation
  2. Median free time per week and annual holiday allowances
  3. A much more vague notion of work fulfillment.

If you can create jobs which offer all three, unemployment becomes very unattractive and will inevitably shrink.

From the plutocratic point of view the useful measures are:

  1. Financial productivity and 'added value'
  2. Time in work (on the assumption that more work means more value created - which is a silly assumption, but a popular one)

Those two views don't see compatible, and I don't see how they can meet in the middle without a lot of pushing and shouting.

The irony is that disposable income and leisure time are two of the biggest drivers of individual spending, and an economy which is strong in both has a good chance of being strong in more traditional ways.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 08:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a very detailed table in a recent Conseil d'Analyse Economique report. I have a photocopy in front of me, but need to dig up the report to get an electronic version and I'll post that when I can (but cannot now wand will be out this afternoon).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:38:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you mean Artus, Cahuc, Zylberberg on Work time, income, employment, it's here.

But it's long and I haven't found the table you mention.

And I also don't think there's a final word on annual hours worked. And wouldn't trust that report to deliver it, anyway.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:03:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have found the table, p. 20.

Mostly it looks solid enough. It shows, however, 100 more hours a year per employee worked in the UK than in France. The justification for this is in Item 4, where about a hundred hours difference is made on the basis of RTT (Work Time Reduction in which employees catch up on extra time done in other weeks or periods).

The footnote to this says the European Union Labour Force Survey data understated RTT and were corrected. (No further explanation).

Sources are cited as (mostly) EULFS and calculations by the authors. The latter obviously refers to the RTT hours, but no calculations are offered.

In this way the report avoids the conclusion that annual work hours in France and the UK are roughly similar.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 08:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I was working my schedule was 4 days on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off, 4 days on, 1 off.  

Swing weekends, and I only got two days off in a row twice a month, which all compounds to make you feel as though you never leave work.  To top it off, they made us work holidays, incuding Christmas.

I don't think that the extent to which the "flexibility" that creative scheduling gives employers power over their workers lives far in excess of anything appropriate in a democracy is fully understood unless you've lived it.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 09:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well said. With only one, unpredictable day off work, my experience is:

a) You go slowly mad.
b) It's virtually impossible to take care of "normal life" beyond the basics. You end up with "no life outside of work."

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Being employed is something objective... By the standards of the ILO, used by all the national stats agencies in their Labour Force Surveys (including the daddy of them all, the US Current Population Survey), being employed is having done one hour's paid work in the previous fortnight. That opens up the field...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 04:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've mentioned before the amusingly precarious nature of freelance work - technically self-employed, but practically more like temping. (Although if you do consultancy it's very well paid temping.)

Also 'proper' temping removes people from the unemployment registers but much of the time can't be counted as a 'proper' job.

Although economically the concept of unemployment misses the point. Many people with full time jobs are unproductive time-servers who are effectively on corporate benefits - they turn up, write a few emails, sit in a few meetings, but wouldn't really be missed if they disappeared.

E.g. I can think of one company which makes 3D modelling and animation software. Every year or so they send me an update for review, which comes with:

A shiny presentation gimmick
A big pack full of paper in plastic binders, most of which no one reads
Special preview CD-Rs with pre-release software

The PR company that handles their account puts all of these packs together by hand. The preview copies always appear at least four weeks after they say they will. And the preview registration process never works.

So... I always download a cracked copy from the filesharing networks - the finished product is always available there, even if the PR people don't have it - and use that to write the review.

So what are these people for, exactly? They're contributing to GDP, but they're not doing anything that's any practical use to anyone.

Other people are frantically overemployed, doing the work of two or more people and putting in very long hours.

And there's also corporate puritanism which assumes that if you're not in the office for ten hours a day you're not pulling your weight, no matter how much of a contribution you actually make.

Even when people are being productive, it's often toxic productivity - selling more useless crap to people who don't need it and can't afford it.

The tyrannosaurus on the table is the fact that the concept of work is broken. The idea of working a set routine is madness. Many of the jobs people do are madness. Many of them would be happier and more productive doing other things.

But it's taboo to even suggest a restructuring which might free up some time outside of 'economic productivity' and also give people a chance to contribute in more spontaneous, self-directed and useful ways.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 06:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you read "The Living Dead" by David Bolchover?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recent Diaries
Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series