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[Torygraph Alert]
As the euro brushes $1.50 against the dollar, it is already too late to stop the eurozone hurtling into a full-fledged economic and political crisis.
Can someone explain whether there is any actual economic substance to that claim?

And, if $1.50 to the Euro is sufficient to guarantee an economic and political crisis in the Eurozone, why is $2.10 to the Pound not enough to send the British economy into a tailspin?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've emailed the guy to ask

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

  1. Britain is far less dependent on manufacturing than some euro-zone states.
  2. sterling is falling aginst the euro and Swiss franc -- to 4 year lows viz euro, so the currency overshoot is not as extreme.
  3. sterling will fall a lot further, and that will rescue us. The problem for the Spain, Italy, Greece, et al, is that they cannot devalue. They are tied to the German-Austia-Dutch-Finish bloc, which has a much higher euro pain threshold.
  4. UK can and will slash interest rates. Club Med cannot do so until Germany is ready, which it is not...
<snip>
By the way, I'm not saying the eurozone is "inevitable". If Germany is willing to tolerate inflation, Club Med will be given a lifeline. I am saying that there will be a major crisis whatever.



Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 07:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. the eurozone is a large economy, much less dependent on trade than individual members are. As I noted, exports to the US are less than 3% of GDP. And, in line with Anglo Disease stories, having a manufacturing sector is likely to be a good thing as the financial sector crashes down;

  2. true. But the impact of the Anglo Disease on that point is unclear

  3. (hmm.. in what category does he put France...?) Again the eurozone is a large economy. Most of Italy's and Spain's exports go to the rest of the eurozone and thus are not sensitive to outside exchange rates. Sterling moving against the euro has an immediate impact for most of UK's trade.

  4. The ECB has clearly chosen a policy which was no closer to German needs than to Spanish or Irish needs in the past (Germany would have required lower rates, Spain higher ones). TIt is a pragmatic institution which is not given enough credit for what it does (see Migeru's comment lower down about its awareness of its political role, and its willingness to intervene to pump liquidity in recent months, without pontificating and then folding)


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 04:41:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs:

Britain is far less dependent on manufacturing than some euro-zone states.

Britain is far more dependent on financial speculation and puffery than some Eurozone states. An economy built on funny money CDOs and junk mortgages is clearly in such a strong position at the moment.

ceebs:

sterling is falling aginst the euro and Swiss franc -- to 4 year lows viz euro, so the currency overshoot is not as extreme.

Overshoot? What overshoot? We're talking about a currency which is starting an inflationary spiral and is likely to default on some or all of its obligations within the next 5-10 years.

There is no overshoot here. If anything it's faith-based nonsense like this which is making the dollar dump too cautious.

ceebs:

sterling will fall a lot further, and that will rescue us.

Because that's such good news for an economy based on rickety financial scams which imports almost everything that matters.

ceebs:

UK can and will slash interest rates. Club Med cannot do so until Germany is ready, which it is not...

The UK can't slash interest rates without creating stagflation. A rate fix is another roll-out for the Greenspan put, and we know how well that worked for the US.

Honestly - where do they find these people? He sounds like he has genetic connections to the geniuses at the Treasury who are predicting $20/bl oil.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 08:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fascinating answers...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 02:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because we all know the Brits are more doomed than anyone.  It's just a question of when.  If Americans are up to their necks in debt, the Brits are standing on the floor of the Pacific.

Even setting aside my skepticism of claims that some sort of grand crisis on a scale previously unseen is coming, I don't see an economic or political crisis arising because of exchange rates.  But there is some argument to be made that Europe shouldn't rely on decoupling from the US to save it from the fallout here.  The markets in Europe have been rocky, and Trichet is pumping quite a lot of money into the system.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew, do you have any idea how exposed the EU financial system is to the CDO debacle?

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run
by ATinNM on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 01:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please elaborate.

"There is mysterious music in democracy, when people decide to believe in themselves." ---Bill Greider, The Nation.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 02:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CDO = Collateralized Debt Obligations.  These hunks of junk are bonds issued by banks "backed" - hahahahahahahaha! - by consumer credit card debt, mostly.

This will be the next domino, IMHO, to fall in the developing global financial re-adjustment.  

Knowing the exposure, meaning how much money has been "invested" - hahahahahahahaha! - in these things, by EU financial entities: banks, hedge funds, & etc., goes some way to allowing us to forecast the health of the EU financial sector over, say, the next 2 years.

At least that's the reason for my question.

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 03:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Honestly, I have no idea how much exposure the European financial system has right now to the mess going on in America, let alone specific issues like the CDOs, but my sense is that, judging by the news from August to now, there is a good bit of exposure.  A lot of European and Asian firms got involved in this, and a lot are going to be in serious trouble, I'd guess.

What the European macroeconomic picture will look like over the next few years is better for people like Jerome to discuss, because I'm not at all tuned-in to it.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 04:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Drew.  I'm in the same boat.  

Jerome?  Migeru?  You guys got anything?

A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 05:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least Trichet is pumping quite a lot of money into the system. He clearly believes the Central Bank is part of Government and has a role to play, as opposed to just watching the show from the sidelines making comments about moral hazard like his Angloamerican counterparts.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 07:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You think a .75 cut since mid-September qualifies as "sitting on the sidelines"?  Your argument makes sense on Mervyn King, but Bernanke can hardly be said to have simply sat around.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 09:42:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Mervyn King is rumoured to be about to lower rates by .75 to ease the pressure on consumers after they pile on debt for their Christmas binge-spending.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 03:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I doubt that, but I suppose it depends on what sort of timeline you're thinking of.  I do think we'll see cuts in Britain soon, if the stories on the housing industry are to be believed.

All of them will likely be cutting rates next year.  I disagree with the idea that they'll fall below 3% in the states, but they'll be significantly lower.  The question is:  How much will Europe be tied up in this?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 03:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[Murdoch Alert] : Interest rates  Set to tumble: Bank of England hinted (The Sun, 15 November 2007)

INTEREST rates are set to tumble next year in a big boost for homeowners, the Bank of England hinted yesterday.

It said the UK economy would grow more slowly in 2008 -- with house price inflation slowing and consumers spending less.

Governor Mervyn King also warned that continued fallout from this summer's Northern Rock credit crisis could play a part.

He said: "This looks like a fairly sharp slowdown. What is difficult to judge is whether the slowing is bigger than we would have wanted."

City economists said it was a clear sign that interest rates would fall from their present rate of 5.75 per cent.

Sure, this is The Sun, but I saw it all over the press two weeks ago.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 05:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, but what does "tumble" mean?  Is this a word they use in the mouth-breather papers in Britain?  And what does "next year" mean?

(And all that depends on what the definition of "is" is.  Yes, I know, all very Bill Clinton.)

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 06:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, what I said in my previous comment based on what I saw in other mouth-breathing British papers: expect two rate cuts, for a total of three quarter-points, in the first quarter of next year.

Now, whether this is an interested rumour by industry insiders who would gain from the market effects of the very rumour, or expect to be able to create such a climate of expectation as to force the hand of the BoE, I don't know. Everything is possible.

I really don't understand monetary theory so I don't know what I think the "right" interest rate policy should be over the next 6 months. But that's what I hear. I do think that lowering rates is just going to pour gasoline on the flames of the asset bubble.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 06:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't rule it out, obviously, given what we've seen, but that would be quite a steep drop.  That's the same drop we've seen from the Fed, which was based partly on perceived danger and partly (I think) on a perception of inevitability from Wall Street.  Things would need to get very nasty very quick to see something like that, and King has, up to this point, not revealed himself to be Mr Rate Cut.

I don't know what the BoE's mandate says specifically.  I know the Fed's, and you've told me the ECB's, but the basic premise is likely the same:  Balance stable prices (stable growth in prices really) with maximum output/employment.

If I were King, I'd be very hesitant to do anything that might be equivalent to pouring gasoline on the fire in Britain.  As it is, I think we're looking at one of the nastiest crashes around the globe there -- much worse than in America and countries with comparable bubbles.  Average and median house prices in Britain are fast-approaching double those in America, and some indices have them already surpassing that point.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 06:26:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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