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Ultimately, it's the broadly defined consumption over the life span of all currently living inhabitants

hmmm.

my government does not provide security, I buy guns and burglar alarms and bars for my windows.  more consumption.  good!

my government does nothing to regulate the release of toxins into my food, water, and air.  despite buying my own water filter system (more consumption:  good!) to protect my family from contaminated water, I am diagnosed with cancer or emphysema or a neurological disorder and have to buy expensive treatments and pharmaceuticals to stay alive.  more consumption.  good!

my house is broken into and my TV and stereo and computer are stolen so I have to buy new ones.  more consumption. good!

my public school system is falling into bankruptcy and disrepair so I enroll my child in an expensive private school.  more consumption.  good!

my point is obvious:  simple measures of "consumption" are simply insane, even in the absence of true energy and environmental costs.  not all consumption is the same.

some consumption increases my quality of life in some immediate way, even if shallow or temporary:  I buy a rack of [pastured organic!] lamb and make a really memorable dinner for friends and family;  I have the local shop tune up my bicycle for a much more pleasant and fun ride;  I buy a book that keeps me fascinated for hours;  I buy a nice comfortable chair to read in.  other consumption is done merely to maintain an accustomed level of convenience:  my hard drive dies so I replace it, my cell phone dies so I replace it.  and yet other consumption is done to recover from or try to fend off disaster or misfortune:  I have to get my bike mended because some jerk in an SUV sideswiped me;  I have to buy medications and treatments for injury or illness;  I have to replace stolen stuff;  I have to spend money on defences or armaments against predation.

if categories B and C here far outweigh category A, then rising levels of consumption are bad news.  they mean that products are shoddy and misfortune is commonplace.  which is... actually... kinda where a lot of the industrial workforce is  wrt expenditures at present.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Nov 28th, 2007 at 05:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes, it's so easy to make these arguments.

my public school system is falling into bankruptcy and disrepair so I enroll my child in an expensive private school.  more consumption.  good!
First, your reason is not the only one people send their kids to private schools: for example, some could be - oh horror - religiously minded. Whatever you or I think about religion, it's their choice.

Second, if the public school system is falling into disrepair, it probably means not enough money is collected to run it. And some of that money goes into the private school system instead. What's the basic difference - unless you are willing to argue that the public schools are inherently more efficient, and this reallocation is a net loss to the society. The difference is at most of second order even in this case.

my point is obvious:  simple measures of "consumption" are simply insane, even in the absence of true energy and environmental costs.  not all consumption is the same.

Yes, true. There are "goods" and "bads", with tobacco being a best example. Even if we take care of second-hand smoking externality by taxing tobacco, and make smokers pay more into the health insurance system because their treatment costs more, is this consumption "good" for them? Regretfully, that's what these people decide to do, and decide to spend their income on. There's no way you could avoid classifying this as consumption. What is necessary, of course, is that proper taxes make the private cost of this consumption reflect the true social cost. But this is a public policy issue, not in competence of the statistical bodies.

There are many other examples of things that according to some value judgement are pure waste - watching Hollywood movies, eating fast food, donating your time or money to charity, or driving a sports car are examples for people I know. Still, other people do value them. Some people buy guns for pure fun and because gun possession satisfies them - probably, in a way you or I would enjoy a good book or a nice picture on the wall.

if categories B and C here far outweigh category A, then rising levels of consumption are bad news.  they mean that products are shoddy and misfortune is commonplace.  which is... actually... kinda where a lot of the industrial workforce is  wrt expenditures at present.

If this is indeed the case, we will probably see this in the aggregate levels of consumption: if you have to buy a gun to protect from predation, running a small business is probably risky as well, and whole country's income will go down. Just read De Soto. So, again, I don't quite see how your argument is inconsistent with what I was saying.

Actually, consumption could be a better measure than GNI, because inequality in consumptions tends to be significantly less than in income, thus aggregation is less of an issue.

by Sargon on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
some could be - oh horror - religiously minded

May indeed be horror -- to the child...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 06:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many other examples of things that according to some value judgement are pure waste - watching Hollywood movies, eating fast food, donating your time or money to charity, or driving a sports car are examples for people I know.

actually my point was not (for once) about making moral assessments of the ways people spend money, just drawing an (imho essential and overlooked) distinction between spending money in a discretionary way, for pleasure or benefit, and "having to" spend money to compensate for injuries, misfortunes, crimes, degradation of the quality of life, etc.  all yr examples above fall into Cat A for the purposes of my argument here; though we could wrangle about their true-cost to the society at large and hence their desirability as consumption behaviours, they are gratifying to the individual making the expenditure, and hence not Cat B or Cat C (red-queen expenses and damage-control expenses).

the sports car is a Cat A expenditure -- fun, pleasing, gratifying;  the hospital bill after the car crash is a Cat C.  in many cases (certainly seems to generalise to society as a whole), an excess of Cat A leads to a rising tide of Cat B and Cat C.  actually this seems axiomatic if we're on a finite planet, which we are.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"...more consumption. good!..."

I love your examples. On the supply side:

Low pay, less leisure, more production. Good!

We must not count comfortable leisure time as a valued product -- it would make growth worshipers' heads explode. Messy. (But on second thought: ....more cleanup work. Good!...)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 11:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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