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Ultimately, it's the broadly defined consumption over the life span of all currently living inhabitants of the country

Why, in the context of something like the HDI, does this matter more than wealth? By that measure a half-starved guy sitting on the earthen floor spending €10000 a year on illicit drugs would be better off than someone in a comfortable house spending €1000 a year. Why is consumption necessarily king?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could use wealth to bomb other people, or buy drugs, or educate kids. I simply can't see why wealth is preferable to consumption on ethical grounds.
by Sargon on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh? Ethical grounds?
Created by the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), the Human Development Index is a summary composite index that measures a country's average achievements in three basic aspects of human development: longevity, knowledge, and a decent standard of living."

My point is that wealth is probably more important to a decent standard of income than instantaneous consumption, if that's what you're trying to measure. Of course, measuring wealth is hard, so we don't.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:59:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wealth doesn't matter for a standard of living - it's just correlated with it. Even a housing stock - part of wealth - influences standard of living because it provides housing services. These services could become much less valuable - like functionalist architecture of 70es which once was so popular but now seems so ugly - which would means that the corresponding wealth is much less.

I used "ethical grounds" because most of the counter-arguments against using consumption seem to be grounded in ethics.

And I was talking about a medium-run average of consumption, not instantaneous one. It's possible to maintain high consumption standards for some time by recklessly letting your capital stock (wealth) depreciate, or by exploiting natural resources. That's why a longer view is needed.

by Sargon on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A longer view which isn't given by GNI or GDP, surely?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:22:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could invest 45% of my income - or none. In several years, the consequences will be very different, but I still have the same GNI or GDP today.
by Sargon on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, are you praising GNI/GDP as a measure or damning it? Or are you reading me as supporting GNI in the face of GDP? Or are the anti-biotics just confuddling me completely?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a) I'm saying that GNI is better than GDP, in my view, and don't understand why HDI isn't using it instead.

b) as ultimately material well-being is related to consumption, this is the measure that should be used - the integral of it over time, anyway.

c) it's very easy to damn GDP but hard to come up with viable alternatives that could be used in all countries, that's why it's used despite the shortcomings. Just like the democracy, you see.

by Sargon on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 08:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a. Sounds reasonable.

b. I could go for the integral of GNI as telling us something more useful.

c. I'm not convinced that hiding the subtleties of reality behind a single index is going to tell us a damn thing. To that extent, HDI is just as intrinsically flawed as GDP - neither mean anything much out of context.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 08:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember reading a lecture delivered by the FT or WSJ or some such on "poverty in the third world" which insisted that the problem with people in the third world was that -- gasp -- they actually owned their family homes.  If they would just mortgage those homes to the hilt, the writer opined, so much "wealth" would be created that it would lift them right out of poverty...

... and ownership of all that real estate would pass into the hands of industrial-northern financiers.  Just coincidentally, of course.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that in the "west", most people have to procure housing for themselves, rather than getting it from their family, is certainly a very strong motivation for wage slavery.

If people didn't have mortgages and rents to pay, they'd be much less willing to stay in the rat race...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 08:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think for the purposes of this discussion, wealth is irrelevant unless it is being turned into consumption, or it causes savings (for instance, owning a house saves you rent). Wealth could allow one to estimate the capacity to meet future needs through consumption.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 11:11:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is it irrelevant?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 11:47:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Take the house example. The wealth represented by the house has an effect on consumption and well-being insofar as it saves you the cost of renting an equivalent property. So the amount of wealth (market value of assets?) is not so important as the income or savings from opportunity costs that can be made from it.

IANAE, and all that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 11:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, a decent level of living requires suitable shelter? Then the house contributes directly to that, as do its contents. If you have sufficient wealth you can have a decent standard of living without all that much consumption.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 11:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But if your wealth consists of a big fat piece of jewellery, it doesn't have the same rent-equivalent value to you.

So, yes, I understand your argument about infrastructure. But take the UK, where the infrastructure hasn't been kept up to the point where, even if it's still a "wealthier" country than Ireland, it costs a lot of money just to move around and this is reflected in the GDP (PPP) albeit in a different way from how lack of infrastructure affects Ireland.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 12:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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