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You make the assumption that this will only matter to those whose mortgage is amongst those foreclosed. It won't: The lake that is the economy may be large and the rock relatively small, but the ripples will spread.

Now that credit is being squeezed, other people will find it harder to get a mortgage, especially in a deflating market. So all of those whose employment and health and pension are in the property market or construction will be affected.
Everybody will find it harder to get credit, which means that consumer confidence will be affected simply cos people won't be able to afford to go to the shops. so there will be a downturn in profit and spend (and employment) there.
Banks won't even lend to each other, let alone to anybody else, so companies will have problems with expansion, or even short-term credit issues, so employment will be affected there as well.

Now, just like the 1928 crash where FDR pointed out that, away from Wall St, high st america was carrying on regardless and just re-built America with public works, the amount of money invovled was small; just like now. But unlike 1928, america doesn't make anything anymore, it carried on because it reccled everybody else's money, but was basically an import nation. thanks to Iraq it's deeply in debt and can't begin to address that till it starts selling more than it buys. which with a crashing currency is gonna be a trick.

And another thing that's different. Oil ain't cheap anymore. And the modern American economy is highly addicted to it. Even at $100 a barrel, even at 3, 4, 5...whatever dollars a gallon at the pump, the economy simply has nowhere else to go in the short term.

So, actually I disagree that this a storm in a teacup. this ain't yer granpappy's recession. This is a 21st century Cat 5 demolition of everything you understand. Like the hurricane says to the coconut tree: hang on to your nuts, this ain't yer normal blow-job

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 10:23:27 AM EST
Couple of observations. First, I'm not disagreeing with you that this may be the beginning of a long sucession of economic events which cause some serious pain and, who knows, ends up getting the Americans to get their act together. It's possible, but I unfortunately don't have a good crystal ball else I'd've hit the superfecta and quit my miserable fuckin' job by now. The lousy crystal ball I do have is saying it's actually pretty likely, but that the outcomes aren't likely to be very pretty. I'd hate to be Arab, or even Latin American. Chances are maybe 50/50 that things go really south, but who knows, worse economic events have happened and things ended up not as bad as previously thought...

As I said to Dodo, though, I don't think this particular financial crisis, the US sub-prime meltdown and attendant standard-fare neo-liberal ills (inherent conflicts of economic elite interest, utter lack of due diligence and lack of interest in ecnomic outcomes of the lesser of our brothers and sisters because "the market takes care of itself" and so forth), is going to be the catalyst. It's a symptom, the disease goes far deeper, and if and when the shit hits the fans, the middle class will really be howling, as they always do when they realize all of their paper net worth is gone. Ask any Argentine, or my understanding of '20's Germany or Hungary was that it wasn't easy to deal with the kind of fall-out long-term monetary mismanagement tends to create, either.

This being said, and while my bias in any primarily capitalist, neo-liberal economic regime is towards greater credit (if but for the simple reason that in such regimes, folks tend to be out on the street and jobless when credit gets tight), the real root of the problem is, for want of a more contemporary, less wooden catch-phrase, a systemic false consciousness which undergirds the whole values system which props up an economic regime which is, quite frankly (and de anander above has this exactly right) predatory. People think they have net worth because they notionally own a home, but the reality is quite other. Similarly, people think their retirement savings are worth something, but all it takes is a bout of some serious inflation, and they can probably kiss most of those goodbye. And so, much of what gives the vast middle classes comfort and allows them to vote overwhelmingly for neo-liberal politics (and this is as true in the UK as it is the US, I'm afraid) is a casual belief in their value within the system. Folks are vaguely aware that they are one major illness in the family away from being bankrupt, many people even know others who have endured this. But they persist in the belief that it's simply something which happens to someone else, and that the deceased family member, the cost of whose misfortune (adding insult to injury) has been loaded on the backs of the soon-to-be-bankrupt, has gone on to a better place, most likely by a very very busy Jesus' side. Religiosity, I am convinced, particularly of the (imho toxic) Calvinist stripe, explains much of why the US is the way it is (and I could tell you some stories if you like from personal experience).

In the present economic environment, this belief can only be perpetuated by ever greater extension of credit, extended credit being a stand-in for sovereign grace, or at least a sign thereof. I suspect we are beginning to see the end of this today, but it's hard to tell. Of course, falling from the grace of god...er...losing access to credit can only be the debtor's fault, so in and of itself, this won't change things; perhaps losing the roof over one's head might, but as noted in the thread, 3.5 million Americans will do so in any given year and this doesn't move the needle.

The reality, of course, is that very few really own much of anything at all, there's only an illusion of this. As for sovereign grace, that's a load of calvinist christian bullshit, but it's potent motivating stuff over here in America, and many people will continue to simply chalk up their misfortunate to God's will and beat themselves up for it, while others will get really nasty and chase down the Mexicans (we're starting to see this already) in addition to the already vilified Ay-rabs.

Of course, far better it would be to ensure housing for all, good quality, secure public housing for all who need it. To ensure egalitarian access to quality health care. To figure out how to get to gender equality by providing safe, free-to-affordable childcare. To guarantee a job and a pension for young and old. Do all of these things and you can actually do without the credit whose tightening we are now worrying about.

But this ain't gonna happen anytime soon in the US, just like it's gonna taked a lot of evolutionary experience to get pigs to grow the wings they'll need in order to fly. The Democratic party tried a couple decades to grow wings, but instead ended up growing an elephant's trunk, so there's really not much hope in the immediate future for better outcomes.

The important thing to note is that for those who live in poverty already in the US, and who have done so for the past few decades, it's unlikely that things will get any worse than they already are. That's really my central point. Those who will suffer will be the middle classes, and given their behavior over the past few decades, it's hard to argue that they don't deserve it. After all, it's what they've been asking for since at least 1972.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:40:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks for the detailed response, I now understand your underlying point much better than I did, and so agree with you more. Although I think the middle classes were lied to and misled by the media more than many would admit. the repugs were way ahead in changing the cultural perception of ideas even then.

However, I think in the UK we've always had an understanding of this. There is a persistent resentment at the poor provision of pensions from central government, simply because we've seen too many examples of pensions going to the wall.

People think they have net worth because they notionally own a home, but the reality is quite other. Similarly, people think their retirement savings are worth something, but all it takes is a bout of some serious inflation, and they can probably kiss most of those goodbye. And so, much of what gives the vast middle classes comfort and allows them to vote overwhelmingly for neo-liberal politics (and this is as true in the UK as it is the US, I'm afraid) is a casual belief in their value within the system.


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
america doesn't make anything anymore

World's #3 exporter. Sweet zombie jesus, can we please stop making this statement.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One question: what does the U.S. export nowadays? Corn, wheat, and apples; entertainment; software and computer chips; airplanes; logging and earthmoving equipment; weapons for sure. Other than that, I don't know.

The statement was hyperbole, but it doesn't feel like we make anything by comparison with the industrial pulse that I "enjoyed" in my career. Probably a good thing in many ways, including environmental impact; but there are several serious problems with our current industrial base: 1) the U.S. physical infrastructure is decrepit with no motivation to refurbish as a function of the production and the sales needs of a strong industrial base. 2) The vast quantity of imports (things that we do not make) means that the transportation costs - read fuel requirements - are enormous. 3) Productive activities often require and fund R&D - read innovation and discovery. 4) Real unemployment (not just the people receiving unemployment insurance) and poverty are substantially higher now due to decrease in domestic industries.

Of course, you are correct that we still make things in the U.S.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We export a lot of high value items along with the agricultural products. The problem isn't the export dollar value, the problem is that the employment profile of the export industries won't support the middle class in the way it used to. That is absolutely a real problem, but that reality is masked by hyperbolic statements about how "the US no longer makes anything."

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We've had the discussion any number of times as it fits into the "anglo disease" thread that has been going here for some time. Increasing productivity reduces the need for labor. The resulting gains are being funneled upwards rather than redistributed to all. We should all be working 20 hours a week, instead, roughly half of us are working too much, half are underemployed, and too much of the profit is going straight to the top.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:28:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CIA - The World Factbook -- United States
agricultural products (soybeans, fruit, corn) 9.2%, industrial supplies (organic chemicals) 26.8%, capital goods (transistors, aircraft, motor vehicle parts, computers, telecommunications equipment) 49.0%, consumer goods (automobiles, medicines) 15.0% (2003)


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:24:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good catch, I didn't notice that. Of course the US still exports by the ton. Per capita, not so much, but all the same, and high-value add stuff as well, especially of the intellectual property variety.

The mismatch of the remunerated labor inputs to the types of goods and services being exported you well describe below. Alas, it is hard to export a haircut or a home improvement or a tax advisement or a retirement planning service, the sorts of personal services to which the US economy has shifted as manufacturing jobs no longer provide enough to maintain a secure family environment for most non-union workers. And despite all the talk about Rule Americana in the financial services world. I mean   the Brits still got that angle mostly tied down (no pun intended). Considering size, the Americans are pikers by comparison.

All the while the balance of payments situation in the US remains quite precarious, the one thing really going for it is technology. Unfortunately, because the US is entering one of its many historical asshole phases,
even that could soon be a thing of the past, as US technology multinationals like Microsoft just work their way around one of America's occasional phases of xenophobia and mass security hysteria. Not a good sign for future exports of services which can efficiently be exported.

The rest of the world has taken notice as well, not just Microsoft,it would appear. So despite the great deals you can still get a short place ride from Heathrow or a very short car ride from Windsor, less and less are coming here to take advantage. That certainly doesn't help, either.

I fully agree it is not helpful to engage in hyperbolic statements about the us not making anything anymore. It's simply not true. In any event, it should suffice to say it doesn't make enough to support the predatory lifestyle it has accustomed itself to, which is really already something to bemoan.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that US exports are barely half of its imports.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 05:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bad news for China.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, with the immense US domestic market, international trade is not as important to them as it is to us.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the EU internal market is smaller than the US internal market?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn, got me there.

I actually had never thought of it that way. But then us up north have been in the EU for only 12 years.

I guess that's what you get from hearing "remember you live in a tiny nation extremely dependent on exports" all your life.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What fraction of Swedish exports are to the rest of the EU?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The biggest fraction, I'm sure.

The ranking should be something like this: Germany, UK, USA, Finland, Denmark, Norway.

Ok, it seems 75,3 % of exports go to Europe and 61,2 % go to the EU.

http://www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____142265.asp

The ranking is

  1. Germany 10,7 %
  2. Norway 9,1 %
  3. USA 7,9 %
  4. UK 7,3 %
  5. Denmark 7,3 %
  6. Finland 6,4 %
  7. Netherlands 5,1 %
  8. France 5,0 %
  9. Belgium 4,6 %
  10. Italy 3,2 %


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Export to the five most important export nations. Falling export to the US, stagnant export to the UK, and growing exports to everyone else.

Tyskland=Germany

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 06:58:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 07:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why have exports to Italy and France started flattening in 2006-2007?  Do exports to these three countries -- U.K., Italy, France -- have something in common?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 07:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ikea has saturated its market there ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 09:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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