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The grid structure for the roads in the states always amazes me. Is it the same everywhere? Even rural areas and little towns?  Didn't some places grow naturally form tiny settlements?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 at 05:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The layout does not resemble Paris, does it?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 at 05:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
USA was settled and surveyed by Cartesians.  VERY difficult to get lost in most parts.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 at 06:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The grid structure for the roads in the states always amazes me. Is it the same everywhere? Even rural areas and little towns?  Didn't some places grow naturally form tiny settlements?

Most of the western part of the U.S., with the exception of Texas (which is essentially a different country in many respects), was originally surveyed using the Public Land Survey System, invented by Thomas Jefferson. It involves a handful of baselines and associated meridians (you find a regional Baseline Road in various places, such as Boulder, Colorado) and then a huge grid. Each township is 36 square miles, each section is 1 square mile, and the legal description of everybody's property is something like "the southeast 1/4 of the northwest 1/4 of the northwest 1/4 of section 17, township 5 north, range 17 west of the 5th principal meridian."

Each township has one section allocated for a school, so in rural areas there are scattered undeveloped square miles that are owned by the government.

Towns developed since the early 1800s tend to have a grid system, but that tendency is reduced in the Northeastern areas that were initially developed before the township method started. New England is notorious for having confusing roads and town layouts. Big cities were laid out in grids because of unimaginitive planners. Small mountain towns often follow natural topographic features like rivers or hillsides.

Canada uses a similar system.

by asdf on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 10:27:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's really interesting, thanks!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 12:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Washington's layout however was planned by a French architect.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 02:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. Mr L'Enfant. Theres are lots of traffic circles in Washington and it's rather easy to get lost.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Evidently, the traffic circles were designed to slow down invading armies. Doesn't do much good today against bombs.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am always amazed that some Americans (in this thread: you and techno) consider getting lost in cities with grid streets less likely than in those with more complex streets. For me, the problem would be if neighbouring streets look the same, not when there are recognisable bends in the streets and unique crossings.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you're in a grid and the streets are named "1st, 2rd, 3rd, ... Avenue" and "A, B, C, ... Street" you can always figure out how to go from A to B. If the streets have idiosyncratic names, then you're right the fact that all intersections look the same doesn't help at all.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are street signs always well visible?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, they generally are. The situation in the UK, by contrast, is appalling. You never know where along a street (corner or middle), where (pole, fence, house wall) or how high (waist hight, eye height, overhead) a sign is going to be.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So that's the difference. Thinking of it, I almost never go according to street names, prefer a map (memorised or in hand, mostly the former).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in that case you're right: if the map has a high degree of symmetry all the points look the same and there's essentially only one place in the whole map. So, it's a little hard to go from "here" to "there" as it is hard to define what "here" and "there" mean.

A few observations. One is that, in Suburbia, all the freeways, freeway exits, service areas and town crossings look and feel very similar, almost interchangeable. This can be disconcerting. Someone called this "no-places".

Another is that this uniformity is actually by design and is part of the business model of restaurant chains such as McDonald's, or store chains and supermarkets. The idea is that if the shopping or eating experience is the same no matter where you are, it's supposed to be reassuring to the traveller, or the person who moves house frequently. It makes it easier by design to move about in search of work, or to travel. But it can be an impoverishing experience compared with what happens when one moves to a substantially different place. By contrast, every country in Europe, even different regions, have different look and feel of the construction, and different business chains with different brands and different procedures.

Finally, I once saw a lecture by lee Smolin where he attempted to develop this idea that in order to have individual points the view from each of them has to be sufficiently different (and so, that in a highly regular grid of points there is really only one point).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 06:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, good, so I'm not the only one who finds British street signs insane.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 04:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you know why that is don;t you? They were removed during the war, so the invading German army would not find its way around, and after the war when they had the money for public services, they decided to privatise everything....

The other thing gone missing during the ars (and partly not reinstated) is fences. I am always astonished about that...

<this is a snarky post!!!>

by PeWi on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 07:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You must experience, first hand, driving in Washington,D.C. to fully understand. I remember when I moved there from New York, in 1963, my first several attempts at getting around by motor car were catasthropes. I would often end up crossing a bridge and winding up in Virginia. Of, course I stayed for almost 40 years, so I learned the city pretty well. And it was a very nice place to live until George W. Bush arrived.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 05:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If roundabouts were the problem, wasn't your current home Paris a lot more confusing?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 06:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course. I hate driving in Paris. When I go in to spend two days in my studio there, I park the car and don't touch it until I go home to the country.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 12:16:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(Note: I don't drive, so I may not get some subtlety of the problem.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 10th, 2007 at 06:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It really must be experienced to be appreciated.  I've never seen people drive like this.  Not in Palm Beach, not in Miami, not in Atlanta.  Hell, not even in Tallahassee surrounded by half-drunken college students in tricked out sports cars.

My attempts were equally, if not more, hideous.  A friend and I had taken a ride around downtown, since he'd never visited.  Needed to get on Memorial to get back across the river to the Parkway.  Somehow wound up on Ohio.  "Do you know where we need to be?" he asked.  "Yeah, about a hundred feet higher and going West."

Wound up spending an hour and a half going up to, and then through, Georgetown to the Key Bridge.

Needless to say, I'm not a big fan of Mr L'Enfant, and I haven't driven in the city since.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 04:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Having lived most of my life in a grid environment, I must say I have grown very comfortable with the situation.  The first time I was ever lost was when I got to London at 21.  As i watched a group of taxi-driver trainees learning the streets on bicycles, I recalled that I had learned the streets of Minneapolis in three DAYS when I drove cab.  So call me a Cartesian.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 01:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So call me a Cartesian

yes, and utilitarian, pragmatic....

or best: techno!

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:37:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are traffic circles? Are they roundabouts or one way systems?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 01:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. They're roundabouts or as the French say, "ronds points."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 09:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
italy has recently gone bananas for roundabouts, they're popping up everywhere.

the best thing about them is how if you momentarily forget where you're going, (!), you can keep spinning till you find the right womb-door.

(disclaimer: i used to love getting on the circle line in london and going peoplewatching round and round for free!)

the worst...italians haven't got the hang of them yet, and sometimes stop and give right of way to incoming traffic....

still way better than stoplights, (boring and fume-y), or the california system of first come first served, (polite, but over ritualistic)..

i bet roundabouts save energy... they sure feel like they do.

as metaphors, they rock.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:35:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The grid structure is very old. It was first used in the cities of the Indus Valley civilisation like Mohenjo-daro around 2600 BC. It was theorised by the greek philosopher/architect Hippodamus of Miletus It became the normal structure of the Roman castrum and of many Roman cities built in the conquered countries.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 06:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
- chinese market towns tended to grow organically, without a grid - chinese cities also used a grid system from a very early date.

the model broke down a bit as the population shifted from the uniformly flat and dry north china plain to the hillier, wetter river towns of south china, where geography messed with the theoretical square city aligned by compass.

still, the old parts of most chinese cities tend to be nice grids, even if the outer rings have metastasized rather insanely of late.

by wu ming on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 02:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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