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Plus I don't forget they provide a pulpit for Tom "Iraq will turn a corner in 6 months" Friedman

Here's what he was actually saying - in October (yes, maybe he's changed his mind - that's to be welcomed, not ignored while making out-of-date allegations):

... the air has gone out of the Iraq debate.

That is too bad. Neglect is not benign when it comes to Iraq -- because Iraq is not healthy. Iraq is like a cancer patient who was also running a high fever from an infection (Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia). The military surge has brought down the fever, but the patient still has cancer (civil war). And we still don't know how to treat it. Surgery? Chemotherapy? Natural healers? Euthanasia?

To the extent that the surge has worked militarily, it is largely because of what Iraqis have done by themselves for themselves -- Iraqi Sunni tribal leaders rising up against pro-Qaeda Sunni elements, taking back control of their villages and towns, and aligning themselves with U.S. forces to do so. Some Shiites are now doing the same.

There has been no equivalent surprise, though, in Iraqi politics, yet. If you see that -- if you see Iraqi politicians surprising you by doing things they've never done before, like forging a self-sustaining political compromise and building the fabric of a unified country, then you can allow yourself some optimism.

So far, though, too many of Iraq's leaders continue to act their part -- looking out for themselves, their clans, their hometowns, their militias and their sects, and using the Iraqi treasury and ministries as looting grounds for personal or sectarian gains.

As a result, what you have today is more of a spotty truce, with U.S. soldiers still caught in the middle. That is a quiet strategy, not an exit strategy.

Study the travel itineraries of Iraq's principal factional leaders after the Petraeus hearings. Did they all rush to Baghdad to try to work out their differences? No. Many of them took off for abroad.

As one U.S. official in Baghdad pointed out to me last week, ''at no point'' since the testimony by General Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker ''have you had the four key Iraqi leaders in the same country at the same time.'' They saw the hearings as buying them more time, and so they took it.

''We have created a real case of moral hazard in Iraq,'' said Marc Lynch, a Middle East specialist at George Washington University. ''Because all the key players think the Americans are going to bail them out, they have no incentive to make any real concessions to one another.''
...
Letting everyone know that we're not staying there forever would be the best way to catalyze both local and regional negotiations and give us something we don't now have: leverage. Just letting Iraq recede into the back pages does not serve our interests.

If we're going to just forget about Iraq, let's do it when we're gone -- not when we're still there.

NYT Oct 24



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 03:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Friedman has come around on Iraq. He still writes stupid columns at a higher frequency than smart ones. I see no reason to take him seriously. And the NYT has a fair share of very flawed columnists.

Like Maureen Dowd, who writes vapid pieces about Edwards' haircut and generally prefers style over substance. Understandably enough, as she's a great stylist, one of the best, but has little substance.

Like David Brooks. When he's not spinning for the Republicans, he writes up excruciating pieces of pop sociology that attempt to determine the way entire American generations and classes - which he often construes purely on the basis of his own preconceptions - relate to reality. Or to the issue of the day. At his worst, he combines the two and will blather about 'security moms' backing Bush.

Like Roger Cohen, who is a decent thinker about half of the time, but is so enamoured with his own 'seriousness' that he mistakes it for, you know, actually being right about something.

Criticising these people and undercutting their reputation has been a great service of the US left-wing blogosphere. That's independent of the question whether or not the NYT should be criticised for not firing them.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 06:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Friedman has come around on Iraq. He still writes stupid columns at a higher frequency than smart ones. I see no reason to take him seriously. And the NYT has a fair share of very flawed columnists.

I suppose all those who choose to read his columns and books are stupid too. Why not just show where he is wrong.

Yes he has come round on Iraq and that is to be welcomed, because, whatever you might think, he has an influential voice. I don't find what he now says about Iraq stupid, nor what he has to say about climate change - and I'm glad that someone like him, in the pages of the NYT is calling Bush and team "brain dead".  

Like Maureen Dowd, who writes vapid pieces about Edwards' haircut and generally prefers style over substance.

Read her piece on Feith - and it wasn't about his haircut, and it certainly isn't "vapid".

Understandably enough, as she's a great stylist, one of the best, but has little substance.

I'm still waiting for some substance, rather than a litany of acerbic opinion, from you.

Like Roger Cohen, who is a decent thinker about half of the time, but is so enamoured with his own 'seriousness' that he mistakes it for, you know, actually being right about something.

 If he's a "decent thinker about half the time" how is that - according to you - he's apparently not right about anything?

Is he wrong about this ? Is it just about his own "seriousness"?

Romney rejects the "religion of secularism," of which Europe tends to be proud. But he should consider that Washington is well worth a Mass. The fires of the Reformation that reduced St. Andrews Cathedral to ruin are fires of faith that endure in different, but no less explosive, forms. Jefferson's "wall of separation" must be restored if those who would destroy the West's Enlightenment values are to be defeated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/opinion/13cohen.html

Criticising these people and undercutting their reputation has been a great service of the US left-wing blogosphere.

Nobody has suggested they should never be criticised - where appropriate. For those not "enamoured" with their own opinions, it's also clear that these people don't always need criticising, and that when they say things we can agree with, we might well acknowledge that and encourage it. A modest proposal.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 07:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose all those who choose to read his columns and books are stupid too. Why not just show where he is wrong.

Should I take this as a request for deconstructions?
Yes he has come round on Iraq and that is to be welcomed, because, whatever you might think, he has an influential voice. I don't find what he now says about Iraq stupid, nor what he has to say about climate change - and I'm glad that someone like him, in the pages of the NYT is calling Bush and team "brain dead".

Yes, Friedman is influential. That's precisely the point. I haven't fully figured out why he is influential. I think he has some ability to connect, but that's eeehm, esoteric.
I'm still waiting for some substance, rather than a litany of acerbic opinion, from you.

I try to write substantial pieces most of the time. Dowd doesn't. Now if I'm right about this, I should be able to come up with at least two counterexamples for each substantial piece she's written. I grant that the Feith piece does have some substance. So here's one vapid piece, and here's another. Dowd on the campaign trail is a complete disaster.
If he's a "decent thinker about half the time" how is that - according to you - he's apparently not right about anything?

Is he wrong about this ? Is it just about his own "seriousness"?


I don't mean to say that Cohen is wrong all the time. Just that he's often more concerned about being 'serious' than about being right.

Now Cohen is wrong about the supposed morality of his support for the Iraq war, and his assorted liberal interventionist poses, and he's definitely been embarassingly wrong in writing about that solipsistic metastory. Read this post on that.

All I can say otherwise is that I like or can find enough interesting angles to provide redeeming value in about half of what Cohen writes. YMMV. But he has deep flaws that interfere with his writing.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 09:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should I take this as a request for deconstructions?

If you like, but if you think his work requires deconstructions this suggests that it's not simply "stupid" (nor are most of his readers) but rather that he may be misguided, mistaken, etc. - which I am very ready to believe.

 

Yes, Friedman is influential. That's precisely the point. I haven't fully figured out why he is influential. I think he has some ability to connect, but that's eeehm, esoteric.

If he's influential that also suggests he's not just stupid - you are only puzzled about this because you are attached to the idea that he is :-)

I try to write substantial pieces most of the time. Dowd doesn't.

But then you're not trying to ensure a large readership  at at the NYT are you? - and they, like most of us, like to be amused from time to time. Also - once again - it's no part of my argument that she ALWAYS writes substantial articles with which many eurotribbers would agree - it's enough for me that she does so from time to time - it's not either/or again.

I don't mean to say that Cohen is wrong all the time. Just that he's often more concerned about being 'serious' than about being right.

 Could it possibly be that you have to admit he's a "decent thinker" and serious, but you happen to disagree with his conclusions - so attribute this to a supposed excessive attachment to his "seriousness" ? :-) Again, I'm not arguing that any of the people I quoted from are always right or worth reading - just that they shouldn't be automatically dismissed just because they write for a mainstream journal like the NYT.

All I can say otherwise is that I like or can find enough interesting angles to provide redeeming value in about half of what Cohen writes.

That's much more than enough to provide support for what I was arguing - thanks :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 05:49:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted, you are framing yourself as an independent consumer of this medium - the NYT. That is fine. I myself appreciate the NYT as a source of news and opinion. I also appreciate that you point out that the paper is not all that bad.

The argument the left wing blogosphere has made against the particular set of columnists is not about this frame. It's about their influence on the overall discourse.

Now if Maureen Dowd chooses to devote her prime piece of news media real estate to pranksterism and political coverage as theatre criticism two out of three times, that's a bit of a waste IMHO. But your mileage may vary.

However, Maureen Dowd is influential. She has a large and largely malign influence on political discourse in the US, by normalising her kind of content-free campaign coverage. This is why criticism and ridiculisation of Maureen Dowd is very important.

So I don't mean to attack your point that there is stuff worth reading in the NYT. I'm pointing out that the criticism you see of the NYT - especially of the opinion pages - is an important attempt to improve the political discourse in the US.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 03:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nanne - perhaps you are enamoured by your own seriousness  - to borrow a phrase :-)

Of course I'm not at all against anyone criticising the NYT and its columnists - generally I'm extremely critical myself. What I'm against are simplistic generalizations and sometimes ignorant dismissals.

As far as Dowd is concerned, I'm not a regular reader, but concerning what I have read, I don't share your criticism. I think satire can be a quite potent weapon - e.g. her article about Clinton and Obama and drugs. Her latest piece might be one you'd call "vapid" because it deals with appearances. If so, again I'd disagree, since the first TV debate between Kennedy and Nixon it's become very clear how important appearances can be and she rightly deals with the problems mature women have in this respect and the wider obsession with appearances in US culture:

 

... some conservative pundits who disagree with a woman on matters of policy jump straight into an attack on the woman's looks or personal life.

And so the inevitable came to pass this week when Rush Limbaugh began riffing about an unflattering picture of Hillary in New Hampshire that Matt Drudge put up on his Web site with the caption, "The Toll of a Campaign."

"So the question is this," the radio personality said. "Will this country want to actually watch a woman get older before their eyes on a daily basis?"

Observing that Hillary is stuck with a looks-obsessed culture and that the presidency ages its occupants, including W., Limbaugh observed that "men aging makes them look more authoritative, accomplished, distinguished. Sadly, it's not that way for women, and they will tell you."

...

Paul Costello, who was an aide to Rosalynn Carter and Kitty Dukakis, calls this "the snake belly of the campaign," and notes drily: "We've been staring at aging white men from the beginning of the democracy."

Yet it's true that looks matter in politics, even though Abe Lincoln still ranks as our favorite president. J.F.K.'s tan and Nixon's 5-o'clock shadow helped turn that 1960 debate in Kennedy's favor, just as Gore's waxy orange makeup and condescending mien hurt him in a debate with W.

It is also true that perfecting the outer shell has become an obsession in this country. We're a nation of Frankensteins and the monster is us. Jennifer Love Hewitt was on the cover of People last week and ended up defending her less svelte pictures with her new fiancé in Hawaii, writing on her Web site: "A size 2 is not fat!"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/opinion/19dowd.html

You might think this fails to deal with "serious" stuff - I don't.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 04:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:

Yes, Friedman has come around on Iraq. He still writes stupid columns at a higher frequency than smart ones. I see no reason to take him seriously. And the NYT has a fair share of very flawed columnists.

I suppose all those who choose to read his columns and books are stupid too. Why not just show where he is wrong.

Yes he has come round on Iraq and that is to be welcomed, because, whatever you might think, he has an influential voice.

Oh no, LOL... Ted, I can't believe you fell for this guy. I myself have an allergic reaction just to his style, all those verbal leaps and twisted allegories that don't really make sense upon closer inspection.

No amount of talk on climate change will alleviate his sins. Those include playing a prophet of neoliberal globalisation (culminating in his infamous Flat Earth-ism), and his choice of such a superficiality as example of action on climate change as Google's decision shows that despite talking about market forces, he is still pre-occupied with his  glorious private start-ups and their shiny toys and corporate propaganda than to think about large-scale (government) policy.

With Friedman there is also the issue that when you'd think he understood something, in another six months you'll scratch your head. It appears to me downthread that you haven't understood what's up with the Friedman unit: it's not a single column, it's several columns over years that always signalled a changing opinion and expectation of a make-or-break soon -- but that soon never came, just another proclamation of an impending watershed.

Finally, Friedman's foreign policy views are thoroughly rotten, it's not just the Iraq War. What he writes on anything connected to the Israeli-Arab conflict is simply disgusting -- I deconstructed once one nasty example. He was also a bloodthirsty promoter of terror bombing Serbia -- when he wrote the infamous line:

"Let's see what 12 weeks of less than surgical bombing does. Give war a chance."

The second sentence is said to be his motto, often repeated privately as well as in talk-shows.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 03:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No I didn't "fall for this guy" - I just made a simple distinction between what he has said on other subjects, and what he's currently saying on climate change - which is to be welcomed. If he changes his mind in six months time I will criticise him then. I suggest you try to be a bit more discriminating and not divide people simplistically into the saved and the damned.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 08:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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