Display:
wow, you put it so well gaianne...

seen this way, growth seems a conceit, a hubristic assumption.

an arrogant presuming of eternal windfall.

rather than the happy accident it more probably is!

the bigger the front, the bigger the back...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not at all. Net growth is certainly possible. If I make a new kind of wind turbine that increases the output (for the same resource input), then I have growth. If I make a new transmission technology that reduces loss in the cables, then I have growth. If I develop a new kind of circuitry that allows me to use only half as much copper in my transistors as previously and still get the same output, I have growth.

It seems to me that we are heading into an era in which the cost of resources dwarf the cost of labour. This was also the case before the industrial revolution. During the industrial revolution and the following century, the cost of resources became first comparable and then (in the industrialised world) negligible to the cost of labour, hence the 'don't mend' culture.

I expect that we will see a resurgence in recycling and repair as resources become scarce compared to labour.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 12:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Recycling and re-use is an important part of this ... a 0.25 recycling rate extends a material supply by 33% ... a 0.5 recycling rate extends a material supply by 100% ... a 0.8 recycling rate extends a material supply by 400%.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 11:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
for a very good reason, and not because they avoid improvements.  

When you improve a technology--really improve it: more results from less inputs, with a smaller resource footprint--you get a period of growth that is STRICTLY TEMPORARY.  It is transient.  It is simply the process of moving from a less abundant, steady state economy, to a more abundant one.  Once you have done that, growth stops.  

Let us hypothesize you live in a desert.  It does not support much life, and life is hard.  Imagine you find a new technology, one that allows you to catch and store water from a wadi and then irrigate the land--somehow without creating water-logging or salinity, perhaps due to a drip-irrigation method that sweeps the salinated water downward and then back into the wadi to be removed with the occasional rain.  

You plant fruit trees.  More and easier life becomes possible.  The fruit trees themselves increase humidity, raising rainfall and increasing the available water.  You build out with more fruit trees, and all the life that they support, and want themselves, in order to flourish.  

Growth, right?  But only for a short time.  You are changing the local climate to one that is wetter and more favorable, and using the increased water to build a more abundant life, but when you reach the limits (which you will) the build-out stops.  It must stop; worse, if you try to keep it going you will overbuild, redesertify, kill your existing fruit trees and return to the barren and meager scrub.  

When we revisit the facts of North American ecology--a fair amount was recorded and written down--it becomes clear that the "primitive" people before the European invasion had precisely evolved a high technology of practical ecological management, that maintained high levels of plant and animal life with very little effort.  This translated into abundant food and raw materials, which, however, were deliberately utilized sparingly.  When the Europeans arrived they immediately began predating to destruction, with forests and game animals (and fish) showing the effects earliest.  We are now half way through the process of turning the eastern half of North America back into desert--or more precisely, scrubland.  

There is a hint here, and a warning:  Life support on this scrub will be low.  We will not return to a pre-invasion ecology, at least not for some millenia.  First we will fall--far BELOW pre-invasion levels--because the resources have been destroyed and are no longer there.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:52:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
growth seems a conceit, a hubristic assumption.  

I believe you have, very concisely, gone to the next step:  How it happens.  A religious delusion of taking without giving back.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 04:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe for so long nature seemed a bottomless well of abundance, we just can't get our heads around reality being different than what we have so long conceived it to be.

i used to gaze at the ocean, drawing peace from its vast wildness, feeling secure that here was a force that was so pure and huge we would never fuck it up, now i know better, and worry about that.

what is especially frustrating/enticing about all this, is the feeling that the only way we can experience balance and sustainability is by becoming different people, more pacific, less predatory.

vegetarianism, or at least more than a token move in that direction, really could and does make a difference to this, on both micro and macro levels.

just as important as changing our light bulbs, imo.

perhaps religion (not spirituality!) has contributed to this turn of events by encouraging fatalism and abnegation of responsibility, handing over our power to self-proclaimed 'experts'.

if we make it through this coming bottleneck as a species, i think it will entail rethinking who we are right down to the core, and thre letting go of much we have become attached to, and worse, felt entitled to.

it might be the biggest fall we have ever taken, but it will be far from the first, and some will carry forward some of the essence of what we suffered and learned the hard way, into a future we can only wonder about.

in other words, those it doesn't kill will be made of much stronger stuff, and when and if the dust settles, our memories will become very important.

so i'm trying to take a good, long, hard look at what's around me and trying to engrave it as deeply as i can....

very grateful for your voice here, though sometimes it's not what i thought i wanted to read!

there's something crystalline about how you put things.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 07:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... is precisely a folkview that comes from living inside our growth-addicted societies.

Of course, when a group of cells in our body starts claiming an entitlement to grow, irrespective of the ultimate consequences, we call that "cancer".

Pure technological growth is the legacy of the invention and innovation we have inherited from previous generations. After all, most invention is a novel recombination of already existing material, techniques, etc. ... sometimes with a little bit of new discovery added, sometimes just the novel recombination of what already existed ... but the pace of invention accelerates, and has been accelerating over the past 20,000 years at least, because the more each generation inherits, the more new combinations each generation can contribute to the legacy.

And that is the primary reversion of social philosophy that is required ... both with respect to technology and even more critically with respect to the ecological systems that we depend upon for life support ... that we are at most custodians, receiving a legacy for prior generations, and responsible for handing that legacy on, augmented rather than degraded, to the generations to follow.

This is, of course, a social philosophy that many indigenous peoples incorporate into their societies, since of course there are a long chain of previous overshoots and collapses in our time on this planet, and many opportunities to learn these particular lessons.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 09:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is, of course, a social philosophy that many indigenous peoples incorporate into their societies, since of course there are a long chain of previous overshoots and collapses in our time on this planet, and many opportunities to learn these particular lessons.

That and the fact that those who failed to learn the lesson are no longer with us today. That last point is, perhaps, an even stronger lesson in the importance of not defecating in your own nest.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 25th, 2007 at 05:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series