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The best way of appreciating MoQ (or not) is to read Pirsig's two books. As opposed to someone's necessarily subjective account of it.

Sure it's a model: but IMHO it's a better model in the way it addresses Reality than the one that the Greeks came up with - ie the "Subject/Object" Metaphysics we take for granted.

What you can do with it, I suspect,(and if you are clever enough - which  I know I'm not!) is to completely reinvent virtually every field of academic study from the ground up.

Starting with Economics, which is is currently in the process of being irretrievably discredited by events, I suspect....

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 06:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What you can do with it, I suspect,(and if you are clever enough - which  I know I'm not!) is to completely reinvent virtually every field of academic study from the ground up.

That presumes that such studies are underpinned by metaphysics rather than empirical reality. That may be true for economics, but it's a non-starter in science.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 05:24:10 AM EST
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Jake, everything is not just underpinned by Reality: it is Reality.

As J A Wheeler said: "Reality is defined by the questions you put to it". Metaphysics concerns these questions we ask of Reality.

And as for it being a non-starter in Science, I would have said Science is actually founded upon it. Why else use the word....."meta" physics?

As I understand it, it is the inadequacy of its metaphysical foundations that leads Science into difficulties of interpretation. eg the Copenhagen Interpretation.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 05:42:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would disagree with your last three statements. While it is tautologically true that we don't get answers to questions we don't ask, it sounds rather like hubris to presume that it is the questions we ask that shape the world.

As for science being founded on metaphysics, I would say that science is a method of investigation. It is neither more nor less founded on metaphysics than your conclusion that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Lastly, I do not see how the Copenhagen interpretation represents a failure of the metaphysics of science or an attempt to paper over its difficulties. The equations are what they are. The experimental data is what it is. The latter strongly supports the former. If you go beyond that, you venture into the realm of philosophy.

But the validity of the equations themselves are not in doubt just because there are different possible philosophical interpretations of them. Just as apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome of the philosophical discussions provoked by Newton's theories, entangled photons do not await the philosopher's permission before they carry out spooky action at a distance.

Because at the end of the day, engineering trumphs philosophy when it comes to being convincing.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 06:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you go beyond that, you venture into the realm of philosophy

Of course: metaphysics is a part of philosophy.

it sounds rather like hubris to presume that it is the questions we ask that shape the world

But that is exactly what happens, I think.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 07:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because at the end of the day, engineering trumphs philosophy when it comes to being convincing.

Well thats going to need some justifying, or at the very least some further explaination.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 07:59:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If philosophy says that building a bridge across the Thames is impossible, and an engineer says it's possible, the engineer has the distinct advantage of being able to build the bridge and walk across the Thames without getting his shoes wet. That tends to be persuasive...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:03:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So engineering is more persuasive for a very limited class of problems, There is more to life than building bridges.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:09:41 AM EST
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