melo:
does it hurt children to believe in santa claus? disclaimer: i don't, lol... so your kids believe in santa claus, are you going to yell at them not to be so silly, depriving them of something that brings them pleasure? maybe some parents, convinced that they want their children to be 'reality-based' actually do this, but i hope not, and i think most would agree with me that it would be a violence. so what's the difference with spirituality?
does it hurt children to believe in santa claus?
disclaimer: i don't, lol...
so your kids believe in santa claus, are you going to yell at them not to be so silly, depriving them of something that brings them pleasure?
maybe some parents, convinced that they want their children to be 'reality-based' actually do this, but i hope not, and i think most would agree with me that it would be a violence.
so what's the difference with spirituality?
We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
Q: You know that factually santa claus doesn't exist, but do you think there is some kind of abuse involved in such belief?
(Not that I believe myself of course, ho ho!)
If your kids hold such a belief, are you willing to destroy this idea--[rather than let it work its way out, that's my interpolation]--you know, growling, "Don't be stupid, that's what children believe--and yes, you are a child but it is silly to believe in untrue things" etc...in other words are you the kind of person who upsets kids for no good reason? Maybe not as harsh as that, but you know--there must be a film with this scene, where the adult is casually explaining what a crock it all is and doesn't notice the wobbling lip of the kid--because the adult is killing the fantasy--ruining the magic in maybe the same way that you might find it upsetting if you were in the middle of some dressing-up sex fantasy and someone was sitting there pointing out that you weren't "really" these characters--and implying there was something childish about still wanting to dress up--a grump, I mean. [Okay....I may be reading things in there...]
Re: the above, most people know that children are supposed to work out the santa claus business in their own good time, and most people think that it is inappropriate (a form of emotional violence to do with power relationships maybe) to insist on sober and "adult" modes of behaviour when they are not relevant (e.g. at the time of the mid-winter festivities--saturnalia etc...)
If you don't believe in it, like you don't believe in santa, why be the grump who has to take away the magic?
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Well, I can think of a few reasons--but hey, have you seen The Santa Clause? I think they flipped this around well.
Oh, and then there's this!
Andy Kaufman on Dating Game, Santa Claus question
I suppose the main point is that if you think someone believes in something that isn't factually true, do you believe they somehow live...in sin? That they have a moral failing? And, concommitantly, are you full of truth and only truth, and if you are not, do you think the best method for bringing you to truth is to have all those who know where you are wrong pointing it out to you...in that stern manner...as if "thank goodness you finally realised! It was so embarrassing!" Man, judgemental friends, the kind to avoid! "I like you, but you have a moral failing..."
melo is saying, I think, that some spiritual beliefs really are like believing in santa, but the sort of person who believes in santa isn't about to start their PhD in...quantum mechanics...so the rigorous scientific test isn't the appropriate medium of exchange.
I prefer the fun question style, like:
"Have you ever seen santa?"
"I saw him at the shop!"
"Well, I saw him in another shop. They can't all be santa.
(You wanna push the reality edge? Is the kid a tough'un? Add: "I reckon they're just people dressed up as santa.")
Then...
"Will santa come tonight?"
"Well, he's got a lot of houses to go to. Can you imagine how fast he has to travel? I mean (for the science heads!), he's got twelve hours max, right? and there are about one billion kids he has to deliver to, so [here followeth a maths lesson--that's fun!]
And then, the flip around Q&A
"I think you bring the presents."
"Well, have you ever seen me bringing the presents?"
"No."
"So what makes you think I brought them?"
"I saw them in your sock drawer last week."
"Ah! But maybe that's where Santa hid them."
Ya know, it seems simple enough; they learn what beliefs don't make sense, they get to see how certain questions are amenable to empirical proof, and just as importantly (for a human as opposed to a logic machine) they have that sense of the mystery of receiving...things you couldn't give to yourself.
This year Mrs. rg received a present from a hamster and a stuffed toy. I think some spiritual beliefs are of this kind--FUN, in other words. And the fact that we laugh at disjuncts...I dunno...a whole other diary in there. But yeah, King of Swords. No problem. I always like that he has butterflies on his throne and that his sword (a DoDo sword!) is ever present but not...being waved around...
Coz then you know how everyone ends up, and for those who don't:
That dead person--is he Dick Cheney? Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
just like any statement, this can be misunderstood.
what i endeavoured to analogise here was that there is no payoff for scientists to gunning for religion. laugh all you want, enjoy your sense of being right, it's your prerogative, i sure do!
but when you sneer, it lowers the tone, and demeans the demeaner...
if i meet someone who believes circling his walla walla onion patch while ululating affects his relationship with an afterlife, i would probably come to a rapid conclusion that it wasn't for me...
what i wouldn't do, out of sheer, simple respect, is attack him, in private or public, for being delusional, because that would be to ascribe absolute judgmental power to my own opinion, and besides there's no way to prove him wrong, so why waste energy?
as long as he's not keeping me awake with his antics, live and let live is appropriate here...
i believe there's entirely too much fruitless, juvenile argument in the world about matters that are unprovable, it just creates heat with no light.
so i don't look for things to debunk on principle.
if i met a cultist who wanted my daughter to trust him and jump off a cliff believing he could fly, then i'd intervene, possibly unpacifically if all else failed!
you are a freakishly intelligent person, i can't even imagine how it must be to travel life's highways with that much firepower behind your brows, but it doesn't grant you omniscience, or the right to try to insult people who have done you no harm.
yet you do, with -to me- depressing predictability.
i have been interested in this field of comparative religion, transcendent philosophy, shamanism, altered states for almost 40 years, long before you graced us with your presence here on earth.
i have come to some understandings which you are entitled to disbelieve, doubt, mock and castigate when i try to share them.
i could say 'why bother?'
but strangely enough, i don't.
but you have repeatedly been rude to me since the early days of this blog, since i mentioned that in spain there was a festa where they drop live goats off bell towers.
i did not present that fact well, probably, but your reply was my first taste of the edge that you have frequently employed, not just on myself.
the fact that you contribute so much to this blog, and are so assiduous at gathering and collating knowledge, seems to give you permission in your own mind to be very caustic to me and others, well i can go there too, but i prefer point my wrath at politicians, not others who come here to try to sketch ways to a better world.
santa claus is a harmless belief system, is my point.
so are mine...
i have been blooded by people who love to destroy others' dreams, awhile patting themselves on the back for doing so.
like metavision, i find that so sad.
thus i know that people who hold opinions like mine are anathema to some, that in a red mist of hatred, they will always betray their insecurity with vitriol, so you are not the first, i am no longer surprised by this irrationality from those who profess rationality as lodestar, indeed it is as predictable as any repeatable scientific test.
i keep hoping one day we'll have the benefits of a migeru without the intellectual superbia, here at ET.
till then we can remain each other's figurative nemesis, when it comes to knowing where the edge of science is.
your opinions of me as childishly delusional are correct from where you stand, i hope you get some comfort from that.
the more you fall into ad hom to post here, the more you confirm my opinions about you, which i don't need to articulate, because they're not what i come here to do.
because i value you, something makes me slow to make judgments.
you took the other road.
maybe they'll meet one day.
till the next time, aloha!
ps. i never start these 'spiritual' discussions here at ET, i came here to learn about economics and energy, and to listen and learn, more than post, since i know my place...lol.
however since ET has morphed into so many other things too, like beer connoisseurs club, sports commentary zone, train-bridge enthusiasts, gourmet food etc etc, it's natural that intelligent people would want to be interested in as wide a world as possible, and hey i think it's great, it's an online magazine that entertains on so many levels.
Some find shoe blogging fascinating and step forward to play, me i'm fascinated with the mind, psychology, sincerity and growth, both individual and social, and so when other posters, who have done so much to entertain and educate me on subjects dear to their hearts, venture into realms where the light of reason may not be the only lumen factor to guide us, i'm all over the thread like a bee on a jam butty, for which i will gladly apologise if it offends anyone.
anyone who is into keeping it civil, anyway... ~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
anyone who is into keeping it civil, anyway...
You seem to think that called Migeru all sorts of names is civil. I'm not entirely sure I can understand how that is the case.
i usually succeed in not alienating too many people too often, but i obviously have failed here.
so not everyone's idea of 'civil' will be the same...
i guess where i draw the line is ad hom, i don't know m personally, so don't judge his person, but his comments, or their tenor.
i feel there would be a perfectly relaxed, enjoyable way for m and me to express our differences were that the will from both sides.
if you study my posts, you'll see that i make peace more than war, though i can be stung into hostility, a sign that i need to grow up more, as it really shouldn't bother me at all.
i hold no grudge, and even appreciate what feel like inimical posts, rather than friendly ones, if they come from posters whose opinions i respect.
an example being the one downthread from afew.
and i'm quite willing to bail from discussions like this, or even ET altogether, if i felt that i was alienating more people, so thanks for speaking up.
the ratings system speaks volumes, and if enough people troll rate me, or quit encouraging me, i'm outta here like a cool breeze.
till then... ~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
With all that said, I ask you for a third time to cool down after several others managed to. At present you are the only one pouring kerosene on the fire, and I am obliged to stop it. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
DoDo is just pointing out that even FPers have different opinions on things. I'm really not understanding where this venom towards FPers has come from, especially from you. Some of your comments have been deliberately hurtful which I wouldn't have expected from you.
If situations in threads start turning nasty then it is our job to try to diffuse things or where something really off the mark has been said, to say so.
The thread went quiet last night with no more comments after about 10pm here and none when I'd gone to bed. Most people have stepped back and tried to calm down and now I wake up to more biting comments from you. Please draw the line now, because this thread can't go anywhere constructive in the state it is in.
Considering my absence, this is a topic I would like to have discussed and I am really disappointed to see it turn out so badly.
I'm only speaking on behalf of myself here but all of the FPers put a lot of their time and soul into ET. There's no power trip or glamour for us, it's hard work at times and to be attacked in the way that we have been in this thread is really unfair. Ad astra per aspera
I haven't read the full pre-history in other diaries of why you feel so hurt, but if that unrequested email you marked as spam and suspected of ugliness is part of it, note that since I did look into it. Certainly no ugliness there, it's definitely not someone who you felt insulted by or have insulted in these threads. It's someone you still consider a friend. But since outing him/her would be an internet crime, I ask you to either read that email or allow me to send his/her identity via an email of my own. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
That one is a long personal attack that I challenge you to show an equivalent for from Migeru about you.
that in a red mist of hatred, they will always betray their insecurity with vitriol, so you are not the first
I also feel the tenor of all your remarks in this thread is belittling for the blog ("nuts and bolts blog", "reality-based community": why are you complaining about others' snide when you practise it so assiduously yourself?) In particular, (though I'm sorry to hear what you say about your father), you are implying that all those here who don't agree with you are "angry and bitter" because deep down they are afraid of death.
Death will come to all of us, and we'll see how it comes and how we take it -- and that goes for you too. What kind of arrogance is it that says I am ready, I can face death with equanimity while you other inferior beings will be so scared?
Your comments are infused with this assumption of superiority and are a long (too too long!!!) insult to a large number of members here.
Now don't prance aside and say: oh, cool, man, relax, can't you ever laugh! You're not being funny, melo.
i describe (attack is your interpretation) what i perceive, and if the shoe fits...
i do not attack migeru, i observe and reflect his personal comments on me, or my posts.
i don't know him in person, so i reserve judgement on him.
this is a public forum, and if a blogger here singles me (or anyone) out for derision, he/she opens the door to response in kind.
i'm too lazy to chase up migeru's various attempts to diss me or my posts, but if you enjoy that sort of search, why not try and find examples of when i singled him, or anyone else, out for even mild criticism, let alone derision?
indeed while i have given him ratings sometimes that weren't 4's, you'll find many more times when i did, and sometimes he has given me a 4 too, interestingly enough.
so maybe you can let him defend himself...
now for your criticisms:
I also feel the tenor of all your remarks in this thread is belittling for the blog ("nuts and bolts blog", "reality-based community":
wrong...well, not your feeling, that's your stuff, but your interpretation of what i posted.
it's you who ascribe a negative tenor to those terms!
nuts and bolts is merely the other pole from the kind of lofty abstractions we've been entertaining on a smallish subset of diaries here, and largely it remains a nuts and bolts sort of blog, and i include stats, graphs, factoids etc in that description.
i LOVE that about ET, and would come here much less if it were all about spirituality and the like, so check my words again, and maybe you'll discern my true intention, instead of the warped version you fed back.
reality-based is the same...natch your reality may overlap mine, or not, from the tenor of your remarks, perhaps not, but they will never be identical.
but this blog uses the term, and i have interpreted it as a compliment, perhaps i was misconstrued here too.
You seem to be having a field day with the self-righteous comments, melo.
yup, sometimes i go too far... thanks for sharing, knowing now how you feel, i'll try to take your sensitivities on board in this regard..
psst, if there are many here who feel like afew, and don't want to speak out, but want to hush me up, use the ratings, they're perfect for the job...
or scroll down whenever you see my ramblings.
why are you complaining about others' snide when you practise it so assiduously yourself?
snark good, snide bad...
In particular, (though I'm sorry to hear what you say about your father).
thanks for the compassion about my father, much appreciated.
you are implying that all those here who don't agree with you are "angry and bitter" because deep down they are afraid of death.
you might have meant that's how you perceived my comments, which is also interesting feedback.
it seems to me you have made a jump to your own conclusions, especially with the phrase ' all those here who don't agree with you', which springs entirely from your own imagination.
i cannot control your perception of what i write!
are you trying that shoe on for size?
i don't know what you mean here, why not say 'i find you arrogant', if that's what you want to say.
if that's what my post implied for you, so be it...your take, reflected back, well done...
maybe there is a subtext similar to what you imply, but i think you're taking it way further than i did, to make a point, i suppose.
thanks for sharing your feelings, it's a lot better than holding them in.
however, i refuse to believe that you are the voice of defence for 'a large number of members here'.
haha...are they so polite and restrained as to need you to do their job of keeping the blog the way you want it...?
nice try...
but you, my fellow bloggeur, are a riot! ~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
and if the shoe fits...
That's a nasty insinuation. (Besides, it's better to think about whether your perceptions could be wrong before hitting out.)
if a blogger here singles me (or anyone) out for derision, he/she opens the door to response in kind.
Don't you believe that an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind?
migeru's various attempts to diss me
There you are judgemental. And that at the same time you face the same:
...while it's you who ascribe an intention of tricking or dissing you to Migeru's replies.
your take, reflected back, well done...
I read insinuation in that, too (tho' in this case it may be my poor English).
This is again expressed in a personalising way.
Melo, while I would have expressed it differently, I am one of those afew speaks for (at least on part of the issues brought up -- to be clear I accept part of your defenses above), but I on one hand didn't want to insult you, on the other hand I am among those who (as per your above suggestion) rather scroll down whenever they see such a rambling from you rather than get in a worthless dispute.
I honestly think you take disagreement on certain issues too personally. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
If you need afew to speak for you and you are talking outside the blog, that's cowardly. If you just made it up to back up afew, when he just verbally abused melo in the most violent way, it's way worse.
We all get tired of scrolling through messages, but we deal with it. Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
WHO ARE THEY? IF THEY EXIST, we have the right to see their complaints.
NOT IN MY NAME, YOU DON´T! I vote for melo´s added human values, well before many others, in this case.
What a one-sided, HARMFUL DISGRACE, afew! I cannot believe this little gnome gang-up on writers BECAUSE SINCE THEY HAVE NO INTEREST IN THE SUBJECT THEY HAVE TO INSULT, RIDICULE AND DERAIL IT????
Where are you directing this? What´s the purpose? You are great at alienating members when you want to, or are in a mood and that´s OK ´cause you are a gnome? Are we to believe gnomes are gods now? And gnomes always CYA among themselves only? What the hell are the rest of us? Fodder for what?
Now give me your best troll rating and sing high mass, if you want to. You, Migeru, etc. are reflecting the absolute worst examples of harmful oligarchy here. Speaking of major wasted talent!
Deal with it. Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
~Calling Migeru "wasted talent" ~Completely unfounded accusations of conspiracy ~Continually ignoring pleas to cool it down and ~Refusing to engange in civil discourse, choosing instead to villify an entire group of people on the basis of their access to admin tools and not on the validity of their comments.
Since I am NOT a gnome, and have ABSOLUTELY NO loyalty to Gnomehood, please judge my rating solely as a reflection of your failure to conduct yourself in a respectful manner. "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
Proud to read you and learn, melo! Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
