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Briefly, it says: "Take all the help you can get."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 04:37:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can illustrate this point with an old New York Yiddish story.
It takes place in the largest Yiddish theatre of New York , circa 1920.
Moshe Goldberg, the acclaimed Yiddish actor is giving his grand soliloquy, a very famous piece. Just before the end, he turns white, clasps his heart with both hands, and falls to the floor. A shocked audience watches as the curtains close. Two minutes later a man comes out and announces: "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am very sad to announce that the great Yiddish actor, Moshe Goldberg is dead." A little old lady, seated in the balcony stands up and cries "Give him an enema." The man repeats again, "Ladies and Gentlemen, the great Yiddish actor, Moshe Goldberg is dead." The little old lady stands up again and cries: "Give him an enema." The man now exasperated retorts: Madam, you don't understand; Moshe Goldberg is dead; an enema wouldn't help." The old lady stands up one more and says: "It wouldn't hurt either."


Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 06:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It does not work though - if the spiritual thing exists only in your head then you'll have spent your all life (and wasted everything you have) in the pursuit of something that does not exist. Maybe some will find that pursuit enough. I don't.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't say you have to believe it. But I'm like the first kid in the story. If my family wants to pray for me or do magic, "Where's the harm?" And if it makes them happy, even better!

Jerome a Paris:

if the spiritual thing exists only in your head then you'll have spent your all life (and wasted everything you have) in the pursuit of something that does not exist.

That reminds me of another Yiddish story, but its real long. The penultimate punch line is "Life is a fountain."
If nobody here knows it, and I get some requests, maybe I'll write it up later.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:30:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The harm is at the point that they tell you not to bother studying because they're praying ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you believe that, you deserve to fail.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is also harmful when those things which are the result of actions & intentions of human beings are attributed to the Will of God.  In fact, I think that just might be one of the most harmful things in the world.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but you can't change those peoples minds ( see Boxing Day Diary) so if those people are important to you accept their beliefs without adopting them as you own. Easier said than done, I admit. That's the action of a sage, like kcurie.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is funny LEP.

Now I read this tale and it tells me a  different thing that the one you explained in the previous comments.. but the first time I listened to it ten years ago, this is more or less the notion I got it.

Actually you said better than what I actually could have said.

Of course, people change, see different things, and life cahnges...but funny I traveled ten years in a comment.

thanks

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:19:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Request.
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll try to squeeze it in another time, when it's appropriate. If I can make it long enough I'll do a diary.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Briefly, it equates success with magical thinking and support with prayer.  Pure Oprah.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
where Oprah means Oprah the TV entertainer....???

Wow.. it really seem you did not like it then :)

I will talk with the masters of the kingdom and my master to see if we can arrange something .. ej j ej e

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it is any consolation, I enjoy the way you write.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well yeah. the style is mine :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh poemless; what a terrible interpretation of kcurie's Christmas tale!

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, he said I could interpret it however I like! :)

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 12:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes he did, but you're a literary person, one of my heros on this blog. I'm going to attribute it to fatigue from too much Christmas partying.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes I am and thank you.  But I actually got a full 7 hours of sleep last night, so instead, why don't you just come out and tell me what you find so appalling about my "briefly" comment instead of simply insinuating my mental faculties are not up to par.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:07:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I'm just teasing you and please forgive me for that, But......

poemless:

Briefly, it equates success with magical thinking and support with prayer.

I can't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Maybe with the windmill kid, but thats all. You have to look at this from the kids' heads, not the adults.
The most honest house was the clown's. He hated the system and the adults respected his wishes. He probably grew up and became a great political satirist, like H.L Mencken.
I'm afraid kcurie will never give us the answers. He only answers questions with other questions.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But there aren't any answers! It is up to each of us to interpret how we wish.  I automatically try to place myself into the families but I seem to fall into the one who worked hard with no support.  Yet I didn't fail.  But on the other hand I very much agree with the 'lesson' of the tale that without encouragement, support and attempts at maintaining 'togetherness' we will ultimately all fall down.  A situation I would rather avoid here on ET.

It also reminds me of some 'words of wisdom' of a primary school headteacher of mine, who would say "empty dustbins make the most noise" to get us to be quiet when we were queuing to go to our classrooms.  I interpreted that as the quiet kids being full of rubbish, which I felt was very unfair on me.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:30:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because this is ostensibly about "reconciliation," I don't want to debate this.  You read something into it that I can't see, and I find fault with it that you can't find.  Just like religion.  Project whatever you like onto it and and declare it brilliant when it reflects your values.  :)

You know, I keep coming back to an interview I read with a sleep researcher Robert Stickgold and Michel Gondry, talking about dreams.  Stickgold made the statement, responding to some speculation about why we dream, "I know it is a beautiful story.  But I just don't know if it is true."  That's my take on a lot of things.  Including this diary.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
   ;)  My first smiley, ever!


Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is just a tale:)!! There is no need to debate anything. Some peopele like it, other people do not. Some people like anothers interpretation of the tale, other peoples do not. There is actually nothing to debate.. it is just about what each one thinks about the tale. You can share what it told you and whether you like or dislike it.. or just do not. It's up to each one of us.. this is why it is about reconcilation:

There is no truth nor false, no being right,no being wrong, not in the diary nor in the comments.. no hurt feelings, noone trying to say anything more than what they really humble think about the tale.

Nothing better than having you say that it is awfull!!!! while LEP says it is not!!! :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:57:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie:
There is actually nothing to debate.. it is just about what each one thinks about the tale.
But we're an argumentative bunch, so we debate.

De gustibus non est disputandum, sed disputamos.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
J aj ajaja

we just can not control our impulses..... ja jaj ajaj

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:41:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, and it's our right, isn't it? Goddamn thought police around here! What about the First Amendment? Habeas Corpus? The Code Napoléonien? The Bill of Rights? This kcurie guy hates us for our freedoms, or what? Let's start a fight!

(The GWOT interpretation of the tale. May I be forgiven).

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ja ja jajajjaj

I just want everybody to be happy again :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 03:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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