European Tribune

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"The flame seen from overhead and the open window are symbols par excellence of the wastefulness that is the Russian attitude toward energy use."

Fuel efficiency is increased by new investments and technical developments. Russia is still struggling and will continue to struggle to catch up with modernization. I remember in the 1980s that New York City had in many building these huge immensely hot old unadjustable radiators. But the West has money to modernize and refurbish.

I would not say that the Russian ATTITUDE is like, it is their technology. When you go for your next holiday to a third world capital pay attention to the level of pollution in the air. It is quite unlike the much cleaner air we have in Western capitals. Simply the quality of the petrol is better, it is also more expensive to produce.

In Eastern Europe many household still burn wood and coal and diesel in the cities, that is the worst combination for our sensitive Western lungs.

"Only puny secrets need protection. Big discoveries are protected by public incredulity." MMcL

by igor vincha (svjeronimatgmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 11:05:58 AM EST
Russia is not a Third World Country and all of my Russian friends would be outraged to hear anyone say anything of the kind. Nor is it currently poor. Russia is sitting on 750 billion dollars in foreign currency reserves as a result of Russia's large petroleum exports and the high price of crude.

I am not criticizing poor rural dwellers burning word or urban dwellers who have no control over their heating systems.  I am referring to government policy that is blind to energy conservation and efficiency because it sees itself as having unlimited resources and immune from the effects of global warming.

Look at all the gas flares  burning uncontrollably in Siberia, whose numbers satellite imagery shows to be 3/12 what the Russians actually report.  See the following link for more details:  http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/09/satellite-image.html

The gas is seen as too expensive to capture so it's simply burned.  CO2 levels rise and no one gets any benefit from the burning of the gas.  Makes no sense to me.

"My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama

by JohnnyRook (johnnyrook1@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why does the gas have to be burned? Can it just be released? What is more polluting? The natural gas or the CO2?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 01:49:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Methane produces much more greenhouse warming than CO2. Also, releasing large amount of combustibles in a single place is asking for trouble, isn't it ?

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I think it's just the controlled burning of flammable waste. This has been going on since the 19th century in oil fields all over the world so it cannot be out of concern for global warming.

The interesting thing is that natural gas used to just be a waste product until it became economical to recover it and use it for energy generation in its own right.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:12:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In many fieldsds, oil and gas can only be produced together. If you want the oil, you need to extract the associated gas alongside and, in places with no infrasturcture to collect that gas, it indeed has to be gotten rid of.

Flaring it is just the safest way to do it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have written about the difficulty and expense of LNG infrastructure, and pipelines are not cheap either.

So, until recently it wasn't just a matter of capturing it but of using it after capture.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, you say that the gas is often flared when there is no infrastructure to deal with it, but there must be infrastructure to handle the petroleum.  At today's energy prices is building the necessary infrastructure to utilize the gas really still too expensive?

"My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama
by JohnnyRook (johnnyrook1@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 07:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The infrastructure for gas is completely different to that for oil, and needs to be invested into as a separate business decision, and that depends on how much gas there is. It's quite often the case that there is enough oil in a field to justify the exploitation and oil (with the requisite infrastructuree), but not enough gas to justify the parallel investment.

Oil infrastructure is generally simpler, and the contractual structure for oil a lot simpler than for gas. Plus, for a long time, there simply was no market for gas in many parts of the world. This is slowly changing.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For those reading Russian - here's a short article on problems with utilisation of gas in oil exploration. Easy enough, low internal gas prices is one of the reasons. As the gas prices are slated to increase, the burning is going to come down. Supply and demand in action.
by Sargon on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 09:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the link to the article. It was very interesting.

It is good that the domestic price of natural gas will rise. It appears from the article though that it's been a lack of coordination of supply and demand that has lead to 20% of Russian natural gas production being flared off. The author states that holding down the price for domestic consumption made it uneconomical to either process or transport the gas from its production site. Also, apparently there are accounting issues since the oil companies do not consider gas production costs as part of their already existing costs of production.

I wonder about the concluding paragraphs where the author states that the government has the authority to strip companies of their licenses if they fail to fully utilize the natural resources to which they have been granted access.  How likely a possibility do you consider that to be in reality?

Finally, I'd be interested in having your opinion on the following quote from a different article:

The Russian government has repeatedly pledged to reduce natural gas consumption in power generation and increase coal use, in order to maximize gas exports. Earlier this year, Russian President Vladimir Putin also suggested that coal be given a greater role. But this goal would require large-scale construction of coal-fired power generation facilities, totaling some 40 gigawatts by 2020.

Doesn't such a policy sacrifice the health of Russian citizens, given how polluting coal is, (or are there plans to install modern pollution control equipment as well?), and the health of the planet, due to increased CO2 output from replacing natural gas with coal, to the short term financial interests of the Russian state?

"My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama

by JohnnyRook (johnnyrook1@gmail.com) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 03:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have a look here. It doesn't seem that the forecast of huge additional coal generation is likely to happen.
by Sargon on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 06:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.  I'll take a look at it.

"My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama
by JohnnyRook (johnnyrook1@gmail.com) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 08:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if they would only make the choice to use it in this way.  The wastefulness is, well, convenient.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!
by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 10:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was writing the same response when I noticed that you had beaten me to it.

Natural gas is 70-90 methane by weight. This makes it's short-term greenhouse effect very great.

"My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama

by JohnnyRook (johnnyrook1@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 02:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JOHNNY: "I am not criticizing poor rural dwellers burning word or urban dwellers who have no control over their heating systems.  I am referring to government policy that is blind to energy conservation and efficiency because it sees itself as having unlimited resources and immune from the effects of global warming."

Many of the companies you are criticizing may not owned by the govt any more. Their presidents were/are people like Robert Owen, followed by a Rotschild,... you might as well complain to your local MP and achieve better results. I am saying that it is the overall level of pollution that is bad, everything is a contributing factor. Even though Russia is energy rich, you can see from the examples of Dubai and other Arab states that it takes a lot of time before money is re-invested properly. Unfortunately Russia will now have to deal with problems like American missiles in Poland and the Czech Rep, before they can reinvest into efficient non-polluting industries.

RE: "Look at all the gas flares  burning uncontrollably in Siberia." Have you ever flown over the Middle East, especially in war-time? Who has been exploiting those sources over the past century?

"Only puny secrets need protection. Big discoveries are protected by public incredulity." MMcL

by igor vincha (svjeronimatgmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 04:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Once again, Russia is not a 3rd world country and it's gas and oil reserves are for the most part in the hands of the state.  I won't defend the US missile deployment in Poland, which I regard as utterly stupid and counterproductive.

As to other parts of the world, I haven't said anything about them and I am baffled as to why you would assume my criticism of Russian inefficiency and wastefulness to be an endorsement or justification of greed, exploitation, inefficiency or incompetence any where else in the world.

"My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama

by JohnnyRook (johnnyrook1@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 28th, 2007 at 07:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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