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Note: my final question was somewhat rhetorical.

I agree 100% with what you've written, with the exception that I think you may be underestimating the overall economic picture.

What I was responding to was the question raised by Kasser, re what many of us have already recognized, and thousands more do by the day, as being an imperative for a major wind-down in consumption. This increasing enlightenment is already having considerable effect on Industrialize economies.

Given the economic unknowns of dealing with awakening populations: backing off in relation to debt, conscious and deliberate decrease in consumption, the question our Leaders need to be asking themselves [and us] is how this consumerist wind-down might be accomodated without resulting in economic chaos. This is their job, of course, but it doesn't happen to be their corporate backers' favorite subject ...

It's quite fine and dandy that we should be creating our own, local means of subsistence and nurturing communal support and existence/subsistence, but the fact remains that were the majority of the Western populations to drop out of the consumer main stream without some kind of gradual, coherent adaptation in terms of policy, it's the rest of the world that will suffer cataclysm. We cannot and must not imagine that our actions will be without effect on the rest of the world.

So, I restate my question, again, in new terms. How are we to design the wind-down of the mega-consumer, industrial, colonial 'West' in such a way that the disadvantaged in our own societies, and beyond, do not suffer disproportionately?

Or should it matter to us?

by Loefing on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 06:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not sure the winddown would actually hurt the poor. As I see it, it is the poor who paying for the overconsumption of the rich, paying twice by producing it under hazardous conditions and then not be able to afford buying it.

But sure, if the west (tm) stopped buying stuff today, millions of people would loose their jobs. There is a transitional problem.

Then this angle perhaps works:

How do you create a proletariat? By reducing the populations possibility of sustaning itself, by way of removing control over the means of production (enclosure,  regulations on trades favoring big biz, intellectual enclosure).

Then how do you uncreate a proletariat? By it regaining means of production. How? Ok, now it gets tough (and I should get sleeping). Backtracking the above looks like a starting point, but to what state? It is all about not being hindered to use the means of production so that you can produce what you need. A general rule allowing use of idle stuff, perhaps? Idle stuff like houses noone lives in, land that is not used, factories that has been shut down. All intellectual property is a sense idle as an idea can never be used up and can be used simultaneosly by unlimited people. Squatters unite!

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 09:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sin Patron, aka 'The Take'

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 02:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How do you create a proletariat? By reducing the populations possibility of sustaning itself, by way of removing control over the means of production (enclosure,  regulations on trades favoring big biz, intellectual enclosure).

Then how do you uncreate a proletariat? By it regaining means of production.

by rolling back the Enclosures.

and that gets us back to land reform and agricultural reform, reform of zoning laws, land use, rights in usufruct, preservation of the productive commons.

one of the serious problems with compound interest is that money can multiply in geometric progression whereas biosolar returns are annual and fixed.  one thing this means, as I've been mulling over lately, is that those who control the money can kite ahead of its inevitable devaluation:  they can own, at least today, enough money to buy the whole world several times over, whereas a peasant family must work and scrimp and save for years to accumulate enough surplus to buy an extra acre or two.  

this means that inevitably, the money-owners can buy all the land;  their money will eventually devalue as its theoretical value spirals way out of touch with reality (see earlier posts on the absurdity of compound interest and how it forces either steady inflation or abrupt "resets"), but they can surf the moving wavefront of compounding money and -- essentially -- buy up the world, Enclosing everything and forcing the non-wealthy into a global "dispossessed lumpenproletariat" -- thereby rendering that class incapable of self-sufficiency and abjectly dependent on centrally controlled sources of food, clothing, artifacts etc -- which in turn creates a pool of cheap desperate hungry labour and a captive market for mass produced stuff.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 02:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it all really comes down to "no land, no choice" -- if you don't have access to (I'm not necessarily saying "ownership" of, just access to) productive land, then you don't eat except at the pleasure of someone who does;  under fully Enclosed capitalism -- where the commons has been eradicated and all land is privately owned and defended by the armed force of the State against trespass -- the landless have no choice but to "work for the Man" if they want to eat...

...which was the whole point of the Enclosure movement in the first place:  not only to secure more pasturage for the capitalists' favourite beast of the time (sheep), but to ensure the existence of a dispossessed proletariat who could be forced, through hunger, to work for wages as low as was compatible with keeping them (barely) alive to tend their masters' mills.

only a person or family or tribe with the ability to feed herself by her/their own efforts is in any position to say "no" to the Boss.  the rest of us, whether we care to face the fact squarely or not, are wage slaves:  we eat or don't, we have shelter or don't, at the pleasure of the bosses who control our access to money and hence to food and shelter.  we are not allowed to build shelters of our own (that is called "squatting" and "unpermitted construction" and is punished by demolition and/or imprisonment and/or fines);  and the ag industry is moving with ever more open intent towards making it illegal for anyone to grow their own food w/o paying a money rent for "patented" cultivars.

the money system is totalising:  nothing and no one is allowed to exist outside it...  the days when you could pay your property tax in potatoes are long gone.

every act of charity, every act of barter, every effort of self-support, seems like a small act of resistance in such a system...


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Sun Dec 9th, 2007 at 07:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How are we to design the wind-down of the mega-consumer, industrial, colonial 'West' in such a way that the disadvantaged in our own societies, and beyond, do not suffer disproportionately?

Or should it matter to us?

damn right it should matter to us!

personally i'm coming round to thinking only fashion could move the meme fast enough.

we need all the angelina jolie-brad pitts, the david beckhams, etc of this world to saturate the media to make cheap, renewable energy a must-have for everyone.

a CRAZE....

 like hula hoops lol...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 01:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup, advertising and celebrity has to be at the core of the solution.

I'm beginning to lean towards strict constraints on advertising.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 10:39:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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