European Tribune

Display:
I am not so sure about this. Jobs also give meaning and some sense of respect to someones life, the feeling to be useful, of sustaining yourself, and also simply act as a source of social contacts many unemployed people miss dearly. When given the choice between benefits and a only slightly better paying job, a surprising amount of people want the job.

For a given GDP and income distribution, I think it is healthier to have it produced by all people together than by a subset with redistribution. Not because it is economically more efficient ( although it probably is), but because having a paid and useful job is valauble in itself.

Of course, this is probably the result of ages of indoctrination that only having a job makes you a worthy memmber of society, and only paid work is worthy of respect. But on the other hand, if there is useful and respectworthy worked outside of jobs, it is not unreasonable to pay for it.

by GreatZamfir on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 05:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The thing is, whereas that might be true of some stable, long term jobs, even "paid employment" as a source of socialisation is being destroyed. Precarity means moving from job to job, never really staying somewhere for a very long time ; it makes it hard to invest oneself in social relations there. Iterim workers are often shunned by those with more permanent employment.

Also, the way the work environment is now more and more designed, with competition between workers, makes friends at work an harder thing to establish.

And our societies are of course weaning people out of the techniques for social linking out of employment. Only when people are forced together, such as in schools or companies, they can form social bonds ; unlike in nearly all others society where one knew lot of people in the community... Individualism means not knowing one's neighbours.

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to a business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...

Also, the insistence that everyone should have jobs, on what are essentially the employers' terms, give those great powers. For example, they can refuse to let people find other balances between work and the rest of time available. Which is one of the main reasons there are so many jobless...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 07:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The concept that socialisation has to be linked to a business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...

Yup. Sig line?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 11:57:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since reading this book one year ago about the way work was valued and considered over time, I've been meaning to diary about it. Procrastination has impeded me, though.

The book, Le travail, une valeur en voie de disparition, describes the evolution of philosophical and moral approaches to work over time. How it was disregarded by the greeks, etc...

The three important aspects of work being alienation because of its forced, repetitive aspects ; personal development through the necessity of acting on reality ; and involvement in the social world through the collective aspects of employment. Although well managed companies try to develop and make the latter two aspects of work seem important to induce qualified worker retention, it is hard to hide they only want labour, not people, and thus I feel the first aspect is still the most striking...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 at 06:17:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Linca,
Do you know if it's available in English? I looked at Amazon, but couldn't figure it out.
Would like to read it.


Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 at 08:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's available in Spanish possibly...

It also seems she has written an English language, journal article version, but it's not free access (maybe ManFromMidleTown would have access? why can social scientists learn about Arxiv?). Maybe you can obtain it from her...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 at 08:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there's some truth in what you say, but it has become a truism that a job gives a person a sense of belonging, and usefulness, and value. I think linca has replied ably to that.

Your main remaining point, to me, is: people will go for jobs if they get more than in social benefits. In America, benefits were slashed in the '90s so that people were forced to take jobs at wages they can't possibly approve of. I don't think people get a sense of value out of being forced to accept low wages. Or rather, the sense of their own worth they get is a low one. (No better than on redistributed income, you might reply -- but on benefit their time is their own).

And my main point above, of course, (measly and unfeeling as it may be), is that creating shitty jobs (unstable, short part-time, low-wage slavery) fixes a nation's labour figures just fine.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 11:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've noticed one aspect of job-related gratification over my career. When the business is new - and especially when the field of endeavor is new - it is exciting and fulfilling to go to work. I say that from work "on the floor" to technical staff to management.

It's all downside, when the market matures, for everyone but the accountants, lawyers, and "human resource" people. At that point they get to be creative about how they redirect, or 'reorganize', the company.

As for the low-end jobs, it is a disgrace for a nation to call that 'employment'.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 08:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
Half Time Diary from Tehran
by ChrisCook - Oct 15
20 comments

Dow in the Tank-Pump in more $ fast
by NearlyNormal - Oct 15
4 comments

The Organic Silver BB?
by a siegel - Oct 15
3 comments

A shift of the frame
by DoDo - Oct 15
58 comments

Canadian Federal Election of 2008
by Gary J - Oct 15
12 comments

Gabriele Pauli and the Free Voters
by nanne - Oct 14
38 comments

Global Human Protein Deficit
by SacredCowTipper - Oct 14
8 comments

Who is it that the UK and Spain intend to invade?
by BruceMcF - Oct 14
92 comments

Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series