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I hope this will be so Fredouil. How people can buy this Segomagogery is beyond my understanding. It's Mitterand revisited, the man that made France lose 20 years of evolution towards a better society. She won't touch any of the real problems France has to face, like the debt, the trade deficit.. she will increase it by "buying" social peace, by postures...

the SMIC at 1500€ "when we can" .... how is that to be financed ? within 5 years, it's the normal inflation indexed increase.

free healthcare for the youth under 25 ? isn't it already free ?

pensions paid every month, Hallelujah !

obviously a palette of small measures, to satisfy every little complaint, and thus avoiding the big questions :

how tho finance future pensions, unemployment, defense, Europe etc... not a word...

rethorics, rethorics, rethorics

the NYT isn't maybe that wrong, Besancenot seemed quite happy on France Europe Express ad Laguiller salured her "courage" the other day...

pauvre France... doux pays de mon enfance

vote Bayrou, so we don't get LePen again in the second run...

by oldfrog on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 08:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My French is not good enough to understand these texts perfectly, but while there are differences of emphasis, there seem to be some similarities of concern and even approach to particular issues.

Bayrou: Impôt sur le revenu et sur les sociétés - Bayrou 2007 - Réduction et financement...Royal: Fiscalité : ce que prévoit le projet socialiste
Je propose un principe de stabilité fiscale, afin que les particuliers comme les entreprises puisse penser leur avenir dans le long terme.Pour accroître les revenus les plus modestes et rendre notre fiscalité plus redistributive et plus transparente, nous irons dans la direction d'un impôt citoyen sur le revenu en harmonisant les bases fiscales de l'impôt sur le revenu, qui seront élargies, avec celles de la CSG.
Second principe, la simplification, pour que la fiscalité devienne enfin lisible. La multiplication des niches et des dérogations, la survivance d'impôts archaïques -- de certains impôts locaux notamment -- rend notre fiscalité illisible, complexe et injuste.La première étape de cette réforme consistera à simplifier l'assiette de l'impôt sur le revenu par la suppression des niches fiscales inefficaces et à rendre la CSG progressive, notamment par l'intégration de la prime pour l'emploi.
L'impôt sur la fortune tel qu'il est conçu a fait beaucoup de dégâts. Une nation qui accepte l'exil de ses citoyens les plus riches, accepte de s'appauvrir. Je suis partisan d'une imposition sur le patrimoine à base large, sans aucune niche défiscalisée, sans exemptions, mais à taux léger : un prélèvement de seulement 1 pour 1000 sur les patrimoines au-dessus de 750 000 euros, rapporterait 3 milliards, à peu près l'équivalent de l'ISF aujourd'hui !Nous reviendrons sur les réductions d'impôt accordées depuis 2002 aux hauts revenus, et nous supprimerons le bouclier fiscal.

"mettre en place un impôt citoyen que paieraient tous les Français même lorsqu'ils ont décidé de délocaliser tout leur argent à l'extérieur" et de "lutter contre cette manière de se désintéresser de ce qu'est la France quand on est Français".

Je m'engage pour une fiscalité écologique, menée- c'est le plus souhaitable - en concertation avec nos partenaires européens. La seule manière d'obtenir un changement complet de comportement à l'égard de l'environnement, c'est que cela coûte plus cher de polluer que de ne pas polluer. Une `fiscalité carbone' permettra de planifier, sur le long terme, une régulation des prix des énergies fossiles. Et ce sera l'un des moyens d'alléger les charges sociales qui pèsent sur le travail.Je suis favorable à une utilisation très importante de la fiscalité écologique, pénalisant les activités polluantes, encourageant les usages efficaces de l'énergie, et pour l'utilisation des recettes qui en résulteront pour financer les travaux nécessaires.

Les taxes existantes doivent évoluer pour mieux appliquer le principe pollueur-payeur : taxation des émissions de gaz à effets de serre, taxation de l'eau à son juste prix, taxation européenne du kérosène pour les vols intérieurs, etc.

L'objectif est d'agir réellement sur les comportements, sans pour autant nuire à la compétitivité mondiale des entreprises européennes. La fiscalité écologique mise en place en Suède depuis 1990 est un bon exemple de politique efficace. Je me battrai pour que nous avancions dans cette direction.

Une réforme de la fiscalité locale est d'autant plus nécessaire que 75 % des investissements civils sont pris en charge par les collectivités. La décentralisation ne signifie pas que l'Etat se désengage : les transferts de compétence doivent être entièrement compensés par l'Etat.Nous mettrons en oeuvre une réforme ambitieuse des dotations de l'Etat et de la fiscalité locale. Les communes pauvres bénéficieront de mesures d'urgence et d'une péréquation financière importante. Il sera créé un Fonds National pour l'Egalité entre les Territoires. Ce fonds sera alimenté notamment par un prélèvement sur la taxe professionnelle.


Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 10:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not really,

Bayrou the Taxes are to be fair and thus nor forcing valuable citizens to leave the country.

For the socialists, They need money and the Expats are an untapped source tax.

by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 10:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The CSG is the tax that hurts the most the lower salaries. It's a disguised income tax. I don't see that Sego is going to abolish it for just that class, just "redistribute" it.

the proposed Segolian 5% increase on pensions for the category "low pensions" is an insult to that category. It gives them 20€ more a month !!! Bayrou proposes 90% of the smic (minimum wage). So they don't have to queue at 80 for charity. This problem which is a remnant of the prewar generation was solved in Sweden in the sixties through the ATP reform there. It's a shame that in this country (France) elderly and widows that have been working all their lives still earn 300-600€ a month.

Everybody has an ecologic fiscality on its program since they signed the "Hulot pact". Except Lepen of course and the far left.

by oldfrog on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 09:33:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How people can buy this Segomagogery is beyond my understanding. It's Mitterand revisited, the man that made France lose 20 years of evolution towards a better society.

Mitterrand did a lot to bring France to a better society. Not just on the social and cultural fronts, but also actually on the economic and industrial fronts. Nationalisations saved whole chunks of French industry which were basically bankrupt. The French State managed the terrible restructurings of the steel and coal industries. The increasingly destabilizing "competitive devaluation" policies of the earlier years were weaned off. Major steps forward were made towards a more unified Europe.

Even if you ignore the rest, just for the European bits, Mitterrand was a great President. The picture of Kohl and him in Verdun is enough.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 03:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mitterand did two good things : Europe and the abolition of the death penalty. That's about all.

On the home front :

  • nothing was done about the coming pension catastrophy, despite the warnings of Rocard

  • unemployment and precarity sailed away, and Mitterand didn't care : "I've tried every mean"

  • nationalisations ? you're kidding. He had to give up 3 years after. Anyway it was a dead end.

  • all the modernisation that France needed, education, universities, research postponed for the future. 1994 I started to surf on the Internet in Sweden, every civil servant had a computer. In France it was a cool gimmick shown on fairs.

besides :

  • gave green light to the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior

  • supported a whole parallell secret family on tax payers money

  • illegally wiretaped journalists, politicians and known people

  • lied about his health and published faked health reports

  • didn't act in time regarding the Rwanda genocide despite all the signs

  • had two suicides during his presidency, one prime minister and the other one, a confident, suicided with two bullets (!) in his head (at the Elysée).

Do you know any other Presidents in the West with such a record in recent years except Nixon and Bush and probably Berlusconi ?

Every asshole has a good side. If Nixon hadn't been caught on Watergate, he'd probably ended as the great president that ended the Vietnam war and made the big opening towards China...

by oldfrog on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 09:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nothing was done about the coming pension catastrophy, despite the warnings of Rocard

What pension catastrophe? That's just a lie pushed by the insurance industry to put their hands on the biggest loot of all. In every single country. We managed to get from 0% to 10% of GDP, we'll manage to get to 15% in a few decades as our populations get older. Incremental change will be enough.

unemployment and precarity sailed away, and Mitterand didn't care : "I've tried every mean"

When in doubt about how to criticize France, bring up unemployment. Yep, it's an issue. It was a choice by a generation, the babyoomer generation to protect itself and pull the ladder behind it. Once that choice was made, it was really hard to undo, and we're paying this - the young people are, anyway. But other countries made other categories bear the brunt in other ways. France has made the choice to let people stop work at an early age - older people work much less. Is that really such a bad thing?


nationalisations ? you're kidding. He had to give up 3 years after. Anyway it was a dead end.

all the modernisation that France needed, education, universities, research postponed for the future. 1994 I started to surf on the Internet in Sweden, every civil servant had a computer. In France it was a cool gimmick shown on fairs.

And we built nuclear energy, high speed trains and other bits of useful infrastructure which might alos oturn out to be usefum in the near future... And we had the minitel in the mid 80s, 10 years before anyone else had anything approahcing it for the services it provided. Different sorts of modernisation.

One model is not so absolutely superior to the other that you should treat the other so contemptuously.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 10:30:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the Mitterand model is not a social-democratic model nor even a socialist one. It's a "I keep the power to myself-model at any price". Thereof the contempt.

  • pensions : the actual model isn't sustainable and unfair. Most of the best pensions go to the public service employees and the "special regimes" (motivated once upon a time) are today an insult to many French. Why should someone working as a secreterary at the RATP go at 55 with the best possible income ?. Sovietic model. The Pyramid age is a fact in the whole of Europe. Obviously it doesn't apply to France or is a capitalist conspiracy. Even Sego acknowledges the fact, the problem is that she has no solutions... yet...

  • A lot of European countries are revisiting their pension model. Most of them have a system similar to the French (that is to say not privately funded). In what way are they "tricked " by insurance companies ? Why is France an exception ?

  • unemployment wasn't "the choice of a generation", it was the result of the incapacity (or even the lack of will) to see ahead the fundamental changes coming. The Nordic countries never got to the level of the French unemployment with keeping decent welfare - through adapting - and nobody there consider himself worn out at 60, unless for some small categories into hard manual labour. The French must be the frailest population in Europe.  The "choice of a generation", go and tell that to the guys queuing at the ANPE... they'll punch you on the nose.

The Swedes and the Finns understood already in the late seventies that they weren't able to compete against the Japs, the Canadians and Australians regarding shipyards, pulp mills and mining. So they taught their blue collars to deal with electronics and computers with Eriksson and Nokia as tremendous successes. Women in for example the dying textile industry were reconverted towards services, specially services towards elderly (a thing France has "discovered" 2 years ago). They reconverted their construction workers into high-tech specialists that build the Saudi cities. So even if there were failures and a certain toll, no Swedes or Finns ended up without a roof and on the street 1995. Some didn't adapt and used welfare, but no need for l'Abbé Pierre.

- of course France didn't stand still during the Mitterand years, but many of the achievements you cite (nuclear, TGV etc.. were started before Mitterand).

This is not the fight between two models - a "socialist one" and a "liberal one". Both presidencies Mitterand AND Chirac have failed, mostly for the same reasons, the unwillingness to take the tough decisions that all paradigm shifts include. Same in Bush's America : rather keep my little cosy power than piss off some privileged groups at whatever level of the society you may find them.

This is what this election is about : repeating the mistakes until final catastrophy or find a new way. One thing is sure : neither Sarko or Sego are the right answer. They are going to keep the monarchic French system in place and appease it with postures and spraying of small measures, another words for band-aids. Then they will be "astonished" if Marine LePen/DeVilliers win the presidency 2012.

by oldfrog on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 04:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Swedes and the Finns understood already in the late seventies that they weren't able to compete against the Japs, the Canadians and Australians regarding shipyards, pulp mills and mining. So they taught their blue collars to deal with electronics and computers with Eriksson and Nokia as tremendous successes. Women in for example the dying textile industry were reconverted towards services, specially services towards elderly (a thing France has "discovered" 2 years ago). They reconverted their construction workers into high-tech specialists that build the Saudi cities.

Could France have done more along these lines, given the big differences between France and these "nordic" countries?  Was the problem just one of lack of imagination and/or will?

neither Sarko or Sego are the right answer. They are going to keep the monarchic French system in place and appease it with postures and spraying of small measures, another words for band-aids.

If you could "design" the perfect policy platform for a candidate in this presidential race, what would it look like?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 08:06:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see you just put up a diary about François Bayrou's Europe speech.

While I like his vision and ambitions for a "union of Europe to change the world" and "to defend our model of society (...) our social values in particular", could you elaborate how his proposed policies would address the problems and concerns you have with Sarkozy's and Royal's "rhetoric" (I am doubtful you would agree to call them "proposals").

For example, according to the article you diaried:

Pointing out the amazing level of the French debt, he invited his supporters "to ask explanations from Nicolas Sarkozy and Ségolène Royal, who every evening in their speeches promise tens of billion euros additional expenditure".

So, what is Bayrou's position on French debt, and how to resolve the problem?

What does he propose to do about unemployment, pensions, and other issues that you have identified in other comment as urgent issues for France?

(I will post this comment over in your diary as well, where it may in fact be more relevant.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Mon Feb 12th, 2007 at 08:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the Mitterand model is not a social-democratic model nor even a socialist one. It's a "I keep the power to myself-model at any price". Thereof the contempt.

Your (not unreasonable) contempt for the man makes you ignore the economic policies that were pursued.

On the pensions front - of course there is a demographic evolution. Of course the system will need to adapt to it. All I am saying is that it can be done via fine tuning and tinkering over the years, as we've done over the past 40 years to adapt to new population distributions and needs. There will be a combination of slightly higher contributions by workers, slightly longer years of work, and slightly lower pensions, comapred to what have been, but as productivity keeps on increasing, we'll be able to oafford the system and not leave anybody behind.

One thing - on the public pensions thing. I'll let you argue this with my father, who has a simple argument. As a professor, he has had for his whole life a lower salary than his qualifications could have gotten him in the private sector. In return, he got a safe job and a safe pension. You may make a different choice, but it was a deal, a full package, and it is quite unfait to change one part of the package after the fact - and after one party to the deal has already given all it was supposed to.

As to employment/unemployment, the main difference between France and the Nordic countris is the employment rate of the seniors - much higher in Scandinavia. Unemployment has gone to pretty high leves in Finland (above 15%), Denmark (10%) and even Sweden (8%) as well.

You mention Ericsson and Nokia. But the reverse point is that having just one such company is enough to distort all statistics relative to the very small countries that host such a large company. Alcatel or Airbus is not enough, on its own, to have an impact on French macro-economic statistics. Ericsson and Nokia are.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 13th, 2007 at 05:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 13th, 2007 at 10:07:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 13th, 2007 at 10:08:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

  • gave green light to the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior
  • supported a whole parallell secret family on tax payers money
  • illegally wiretaped journalists, politicians and known people
  • lied about his health and published faked health reports
  • didn't act in time regarding the Rwanda genocide despite all the signs
  • had two suicides during his presidency, one prime minister and the other one, a confident, suicided with two bullets (!) in his head (at the Elysée).

Yes, the monarchic presidency is probably not the best feature of the French system, and Mitterrand sure adopted the ways he was criticising two decades earlier....

And indeed, I have a lot of admiration for the transparency, openness and simplicity of the Nordic governments - and that is certainly one feature that I'd like to see adopted here.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 13th, 2007 at 04:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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