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You're right about the difficult task to build a multipolar world, and I agree Europe has still a long way to go to fully assume its role in the world, but it is not an excuse for the aggressive US military imperialism.

It's like the schoolyard bully saying: "There is nobody to challenge me, so I'm entitled to continue bullying"!

There is little chance to build a new and juster world order if the United States keep believing in the legitimacy of their supremacy and refuse to adopt a multilateral foreign policy.

 

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 05:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I, in no way, mean to imply that it justifies the schoolyard bully.  I'm wholly in agreement that it must stop.  But, as we both know the story continues, it's still the case that the schoolyard bully continues being the schoolyard bully until another kid, whom he can't push around, stands up to him.  Where power exists, it is typically used.  That's my primary criticism of the practice of international relations, in general, and of the UN, in particular: Even when it told the Neocons to shove it, the Neocons still did what they wanted to do.  So what, then, is the purpose, other than to give the appearance of good relations and waste money?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:02:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The international community may be in a position to punish the US for the neocons' break of international law in the future. So, that they failed to obtain UNSC cover for the Iraq misadventure is a significant fact.

From a realist point of view the UNSC exists to prevent open war among the veto members, which is no mean feat.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:12:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How are they going to punish them?

The UNSC exists to prevent war between members who all know well enough that they're perfectly capable of completely destroying each other?  I think you're giving far too much credit to the Security Council.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:20:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By allowing the veto members to draw lines in the sand for each other through abstentions and vetos, the UNSC prevents conflict between them. It the US left the UN the risk of a military confrontation between the US and Russia or China would increase greatly.

The US can't be punished now, but if it trips over Iran and breaks its neck, it will be punished for its past violations of international law. At least I hope so.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:29:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the chances of a fatal misadventure are not small.

China flexed it financial muscle recently, and the markets responded instantly.

The US isn't really a superpower. It just thinks it is one, and has (almost) everyone else fooled.

But it can't afford its current levels of adventuring, politically, financially or socially. There will be a payback period. It may land on the wrong people for the wrong reasons. But even so - I'll be hugely surprised if there isn't an accounting within the next decade, and possibly even within the next couple of years.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:52:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

Key to the "accounting" is the relationship between the Dollar and Oil.

It HAS to change and soon: I'm two years bid and five years offered

In the meantime, if I were a hedge fund manager I'd be borrowing as many dollars as I could and using them to buy energy assets in any country mad enough (or coerced enough) to sell them...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the US is still an Empire... it still has military bases , and economic influence and manpower. It has been highly debilitated and has lost Asia a little bit(much more) sooner than expected. But the US will be an empire until they lost control and influence over South America in the hands of Brasil (or a combination of countries) and Europe completely disregards US opinion.

SO I still give the American Empire a range of 10-40 years.. and if it were to pursue the first among equals policy instead of Empire (with intelligence) .. it could keep on for over half a century  (and it could be longer but I do not dare to predict anything 50 years from now)

Other than that, it will be another England/France/Spain at the most within 40 years.

An opinion of the future.. a mere opinion.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 09:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
« Il y a un moment dans la vie des empereurs, qui succède à l'orgueil d'avoir conquis des territoires d'une étendue sans bornes, à la mélancolie et au soulagement de savoir que bientôt il nous faudra renoncer à les connaître et les comprendre...

...c'est le moment de désespoir où l'on découvre que cet empire qui nous avait paru la somme de toutes les merveilles n'est en réalité qu'une débâcle sans fin ni forme, que sa corruption est trop évidemment gangréneuse pour que notre sceptre puisse y apporter remède, que la victoire sur les souverains adverses nous a rendus les héritiers de leur lent écroulement. »  Italo Calvino in « Les Villes Invisibles »

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 10:53:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Countries can draw lines in the sand without the UN.

How could the US break its neck by tripping over Iran?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:02:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We've discussed various ways in which an Iranian adventure can be a disaster for the global economy. Plus the US has 150 thousand sitting ducks in Iraq. Plus if China gets pissed off enough they can cause a financial crash, too?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:07:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus if China gets pissed off enough they can cause a financial crash, too?

You're assuming China is interested in using a strategy that amounts to an economic version of a suicide bombing.  On a side note it seems that China has been buying a lot of mortgage securities.. I'm amused - if the really bad version of the housing crash happens the way it will look to me is that the US spent a lot of money buying shiny little consumer goods in China, China will have spent a lot of that money building up infrastructure at home, but also lots of housing in the US in the form of loans that won't get paid back.

A decision by China to crash the US economy means two things:
a) the collapse of China's export led model of economic growth
b) wiping out all those accumulated surpluses that they've earned due to the export boom.

Sure, it's not the only model available, so they can change. But the sudden forced transition will be at least as unpleasant for them as it will be for the US.

by MarekNYC on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 03:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MAED... Mutual Assured Economic Destruction

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 04:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In a normal situation, China has no interest in breaking the "Bretton Woods II" fragile equilibrium and weakening the dollar. But if the US create havoc by starting a war with Iran, the situation will become very different and it could trigger the collapse of the financial house of cards...

Also don't forget the old Chess game saying (from Aron Nimzovitch): "The threat is stronger than the execution"

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Mar 14th, 2007 at 08:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
China and others holding dollar balances could pull the same trick as the US did to the Brits at Suez.

ie threaten to pull the plug.

In fact I would be amazed if the Chinese etc don't use the same threat to get a piece of the Great Iraqi Carve-Up (Grand Theft Babylon).

The US is about to learn that Dollars are priced in Oil, and not vice versa.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like the Bushistas, you misunderestimate the value of just getting people to regularly sit at the same table to talk geopolitics. Like I said, it's a systemic thing.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's also the basic idea behind the EU.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 10:11:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Countries can draw lines in the sand without the UN.

Whatever the forum for mutually accepted quasi-obligatory drawing of lines in the sand, you can call it UN(SC).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 10:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Countries can draw lines in the sand without the UN.

It does help to have somewhere where you know that not only you are being watched over where you draw lines, but also where you know that the people watching do speak the language of diplomacy and so are going to go back and tell the opposing government the correct message that you are trying to send.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, you just swagger in the privacy of your own home, and if someone crosses the line you blame them for how knowing about your threat.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 14th, 2007 at 05:23:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I know that works with the youths on my street

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 14th, 2007 at 06:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I already said once (and you disagreed) that one of the causes of WWII was that the US refusal to cooperate with the League of Nations emboldened the Axis powers in the early 1930's.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But who is emboldened in a world where the major players can't defeat each other?  This isn't the 1930s.  Past performance doesn't guarantee future performance.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:47:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The major players can rarely defeat each other, they generally go into wars of attrition and often fight themselves into a truce by exhaustion (the 100 years war, the 30 years war, WWI, the cold war). WWII saw the death of 50 million people and war on three continents in order for the axis powers to be defeated, and that's counting the preludes in the 1930's.

Past misperformance suggests future misperformance.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:58:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean not counting the preludes.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 07:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WWII made more than 62 millions casualties and probably 10 millions more if you include the Sino-Japanese war starting in 1937.

If by preludes you mean also the Spanish civil war, then add 500,OOO casualties.  

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 08:06:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia gives over 20 million casualties for the second Sino-Japanese war including 1931-37.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 08:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but 10 millions of them are already counted in the 62 millions of WWII.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 10:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The UN does a lot of really great research. Other than that, I think that having a talk shop and a body that formulates norms and lends legitimacy to actions is a good thing, even though its influence is hard to demonstrate. Hey! We can't tell if those with power always use it. At least we haven't had another world war, although that may easily have been due to a dozen other causes.

The costs of the UN are overrated anyway. Looking at some general data, the yearly cost seems to be around $1.5 - $2 billion, which is less than 0.05% of worldwide GDP.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Mar 13th, 2007 at 06:25:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that means whereas the American progressives have to develop and promote a new non-militaristic narrative within the Democratic Party and in the American opinion, our task as Europeans is to fight for an European Union strong enough (non-militarily) to stand up to the US...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Wed Mar 14th, 2007 at 10:44:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Jerome's diary on the latest delirium by the FT's Martin Wolf on the EU.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 14th, 2007 at 03:43:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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