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you should add a category :

Dictatorship :

Laguiller
Shivardi
Besancenot
Buffet
Bove
Lepen

Democracy :

Royal
Sarkozy
Bayrou
Devilliers
Voynet

by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 03:26:42 AM EST
Nope.

Fascism:

LePen
Sarkozy
DeVilliers

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 03:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I dont even find it funny, Fascism like Communism killed quite lot of people, it is not joking matter.
by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 03:58:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't find it funny either.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the most heard cliche of this election is the accusation of fascism against Sarkozy. Are you saying I am a fascist if I am enclined to vote for him? I wish people would bother to substantiate a bit more.

I also find your summary of economic programs somewhat biased (but it was not an easy task in the first place):
 - requesting unemployed people to accept jobs (even if not in the sector they are looking for) features quite prominently in Royal's programme, so why have it in Bayrou's only?
 - can you also substantiate why Royal deserves an 'ecology' tag more than any other candidate (but Bove or Voynet)? Is that because she suggested to close down some of the country's nuclear facilities? She backed down subsequentely, we all know it will not happen, and many here doubt this is a good thing for the environment in the first place. Once we have seen action in that field from the PS (nothing meaningful in the past 30 years), I am happy to reconsider. But to date, they are on a par with UMP (who actually quite significantly relaxed the framework for wind energy in the past two years, with 'visible' results).

But thanks for the post, it is certainly helpful to trigger a good discussion.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sarkozy as the fascist :

He has a constant need to threaten non-favorable press. He called Liberation's owner, saying that state subsidies would disappear once he is elected if the paper remains against him. He had Paris-Match's director fired for daring to speak about his troubled wedding.

One of his main policies is brutal treatment of illegals, pointing the blame for crime on the "stranger". He is constantly supporting the police forces, destroying the balance between the executive and the judicial branches of government.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:40:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Political pressures on the press, politically motivated subsidies (in every field) has been a common practice of all French governments since I was born (and I suppose before as well). You are not arguing that lefty press cannot express itself in France or that you are denied free speech, are you?

Would not you expect him to support the police, being their boss? As I said, his policies are hard-line, but I really do not think they threaten democracy (which the accusation of fascism implies).

Do you really think France was not a democracy for the past 5 years or will cease to be one if he is elected?

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:52:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that he considers himself "the boss of the police" is one of my main beefs with him.

Chirac was sometimes very right wing, but his historic clientele was the peasantry... His support for the PAC might have hurt the EU, but not that badly.

Whereas Sarkozy, with the police as his clientele, is letting it develop some very bad habits, such as unpunished bavures in the projects, random violent arrests of people with a darker-skin... His policies undermining the separation of the judicary and executive branches do undermine democracy.

I'm not going to claim Sarkozy would suppress free speech for the left wing, but the Berlusconian way in which he treats the press and the press treats him had not been seen in France since de Gaulle. 5 years of this will mean little access for left wing -or critical- ideas in the mainstream press. See how easily the various scandals of this campaign have been defused - the press dares not questioning him.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:50:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[Chirac's] support for the PAC might have hurt the EU, but not that badly

Chirac's stubborn support for the PAC has hurt badly France within the EU, and jeopardized The EU position in global talks.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 06:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That makes him an authoritarian, not a fascist. Fascism is a specific political system which includes corporatism and a militarisation of the society.

I agree (for once!) with fredouil and Rom: I think it is not relevant and even counterproductive to use the word fascism to qualify an authoritarian politician like Sarkozy.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on, don't be ashamed !

I am not disputing authoritarian (nor control freak).

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:04:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not referring to you. I seldom agree with fredouil...;-)

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To the extent Bové or Laguiller want dictatorship, Sarko represents corporatism and militarisation of society.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:19:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ARe you kidding ??

They are totally open (much a sect can be) about their dictatorial ambitions.

you should get to know them.

by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 06:03:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If they're so open, how come anyone needs to get to know them?

Cut the crap, fredouil. Last time you guaranteed Le Pen wasn't going to get his signatures and be forced to stand down. As usual, Le Pen was making himself out to be a victim. You should get to know what you're talking about.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 06:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll stipulate that the socialists have not been much better than the right on green issues, as noted by L'alliance pour la planète:


Les partis politiques français, mauvais élèves de l'écologie

Le 12 décembre 2006, les quatre porte-parole de l'Alliance pour la planète (plus de 70 ONG d'environnement et de solidarité, soit plus d'un million de membres) ont révélé les notes attribuées aux partis politiques, à la suite de l'évaluation des décisions prises au Parlement et au gouvernement entre 1997 et 2006, en matière d'écologie.

Cette notation s'est effectuée à partir des 24 propositions que l'Alliance pour la planète estime fondamentales. Les résultats sont les suivants :

UMP : 4,5 / 20
UDF : 5 / 20
PCF : 5,5 / 20
PS : 6,5 / 20
Verts : 11 / 20

Ces notes permettent de relativiser les déclarations d'intention des candidats aux élections présidentielles de 2007 qui rivalisent dans la surenchère en faveur de la défense de l'écologie.

In a US notation system, UMP gets a F, UDF, PC and PS a E, and the greens a C.

I would continue to expect slightly better results form Royal than from Sarkozy in the future.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:51:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"slightly better expectations" sounds reasonable.

now given how pressing the matter is, it may be enough of a difference to vote for Royal.


'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:56:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
L'alliance 2007 has also graded political platform for their ecology bent and the difference is more significative : PS gets a 13 whereas UDF gets a 9 and UMP an 8,5

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:28:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fascism is probably a bit too much, but Sarkozy has shown some pretty ugly sides.

His discourse on immigration, which stigmatizes immigrants and blames them for our deficits, is substantially similar to Le Pen's ; his discourse about criminals is similarly concentrated exclusively on repression (while not doing anything in practice - there are fewer police forces in Seine Saint Denis (93) than 5 years ago, despite Sarkozy being the minister in charge for most of that period).

And his control freakery and agitated interventionism in the economy (cf his few months in the ministry for economy) display little real liberalism and lots more corporatism.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he turned eaglier over the past 2 /3 years, thus making more room in the centre for Bayrou. I maintain however that the accusation of fascism is excessive (especially in a country when it is still not politically correct to link far left politicians to the atrocities committed in the name of communism).

'Liberal' applies to very few French politician indeed (in terms of economic policies) and you are right, Sarkozy is not one of them.  And obviously it does apply to right wing politicians when it comes to social/cultural policies (in the US sense).

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good to see you around.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rest assure I never ceased to be a regular reader.

I am looking forward to the next few weeks on Eurotrib.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no history of French communists and Trots committing crimes against humanity. However, there is a history of such crimes committed by the Vichy administration, and the colonial regimes from Algeria (not even officially a colony during the war) to Indochina -- and of latter-day 'patriots' praising or excusing or giving rhetorical bones to those who took part in it, including Sarko.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First, this was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that the accusation of fascism goes too far and should not be made so lightly. I do not think that democracy will be threatened if he is elected to office. It does not mean I do not understand why people think that his policies are excessive.

Second, I find it a paradox that the far left and communists (in France at least) have absolved themselves from the crimes committed, not by them for sure, but in countries and by regime they have relentlessy praised (is not that giving rethorical bones?) and that at the same time, very light and easy accusations of fascism are made against someone else. There is an imbalance there.

I do not intend to diminish or ignore the 'patriotic' crimes. I am not sure how you relate Sarkozy to them, though. Please advise.


'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now Sarkozy is regularly saying that "we shouldn't be ashamed of colonisation", etc...

And of course let's not get into how a fair share of the right defended Papon during his trial. (or still does, see Barre's latest declarations).

As for the far left, "trotskyists" (most of which don't necessarily defend trostky's policies nowadays) have never much approved Stalin nor Mao...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First, this was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that the accusation of fascism goes too far and should not be made so lightly.

What about the preceding accusation of dictatorship?

I do not think that democracy will be threatened if he is elected to office.

I think it will be corroded. He won't dissolve it like Mussolini, but will further turn some of its institutions into a mockery of their nominal functions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:43:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not mine.

I was not relating this only to this thread, but the relentless accusation of fascism in the French lefty press and private circles.

"Mockery of their nominal function"

We disagree here.  If he wins, I hope I was not wrong and you were not right about this.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK. To get this discussion further away from flippancy with f, a different question: in which fields do you think Sarko trumps Bayrou?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in countries and by regime they have relentlessy praised (is not that giving rethorical bones?)

It is, and AFAIK applicable to one or two on fredouil's list. Now, what does this have to do with you reacting only to my flippant rhetorical reply to fredouil's flippant rhetoric?

I am not sure how you relate Sarkozy to them, though. Please advise.

I better relay the question of a list of Sarko's recent underhand notes to afew (from whom I first heard of a large part of them anyway).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The only thing it has to do with it is that I am sick of hearing that Sarkozy is a fascist. It just fell on you.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 10:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Add to that Sarko's discourse about and treatment of homeless people and/or Gypsies in Paris.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

  1. You are right that slinging words like "fascism" around is not productive. However, Sarkozy's current swing to the far right, in particular with the deliberate  reminder of Vichy implicit in the "Ministry of Immigration and National Identity", certainly provokes the "f----" taunt. He knows what he is doing and is fishing for extreme-right votes, so presumably any tears he may shed about being called a fascist will be crocodile tears. As to whether you should be called a fascist if you vote for him, it's rather up to your conscience to decide.
  2. Yes, it's hard to track the programmes and propositions, since they're not always explicit, or, when they are, new policy proposals may surface, or old ones sink, as the campaign liner sails ahead (please admire metaphor). But, as far as I know, Royal doesn't propose to make the unemployed work - see the relevant page of her propositions, where the nearest thing to it is that young people would be personally monitored and, after six months without a job, given either vocational training or one of the "youth jobs" she wants to create 500,000 of (along the lines of the last PS government, I suppose).

    Bayrou's offer is to have all long-term unemployed (he speaks of the RMI, the social minimum benefit) work in jobs useful to the community. He cloaks this in language to do with his village, forgetting most people don't live in villages, but in much more abrasive environments. He doesn't offer any major financing for his plan, either. He has a tendency to go in for Café du Commerce proposals like this, that you can hear anywhere but which don't really betray much thought.

    I think the difference between Royal and Bayrou is significant here.

  3. The "ecology" tag is not absolute. I'm aware that it's much more solidly pinned to Voynet and Bové than Royal. However, I think it's important, and worth underlining, that Royal represents a break-away from the traditional productivism of the PS, and that's why I brought her into the "ecology" group.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:22:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My understanding is that you have to go for the youth job or forsake further unemployment aide. It does not go as far as Bayrou's plan (whatever it is worth), but I think it is important to point it out because it is a real change in the unemployment regime as it imposes reciprocal obligations on the recipient of aide.

Personnaly I like the idea, and I think only a left wing politician will be able to implement it becasue it will be quite controversial. It could go hand-in-hand with an improvement in the benefits handed out  in order to make it more palatable (I give you more, but you need to do something about it).

And thanks for the detailed and substantiated response.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Royal presents it as a right rather than an obligation: either training/tutoring or a youth job. Everything, imo, hinges on the quality of training, the quality of youth jobs - and therefore the financing of the whole system. If it's done properly, I think it could be useful.

I honestly think Bayrou's proposal is demagogic. I wish I had a euro for every time I've heard someone ask why those on the RMI (minimum benefit) aren't forced to "work for it" by sweeping the streets etc. That's not quite what he says, but I think he's casting his hook in those waters.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 06:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This program, called "Workfare" in the United States is basically a disaster without employee protections.  It has led to cases where parents must travel by bus to two or three jobs for the same money they received before, leaving kids unattended, etc.

It is essentially welfare for corporations that pay the minimum wage.

by paving on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 03:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in addition to providing cheap and compliant labor, it's also been great for reducing the unemployment statistics.
by Jett on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 06:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These measures further the social and institutional oppression on the poor and the jobless.

For example, see (french) what the government is allowed to do when someone is on the RMI.

More and more, it is considered normal for the government to intrudes into the lives of those needing help. That's part of the development of contractual and individualised help, where instead of giving general help to those in need (in need only because the current organisation of capitalism requires a certain amount of jobless people to function, and produces them if need be), the poor has to forsake dignity, showing all the aspects of his life to the "Assistante Sociale" and beg for help. All this social control is in the name of finding those that abuse the system... But the financial cause of this abuse is much lower of course than that of people and companies not paying their taxes

Of course, the side effect of the RMA, giving very cheap labor to private companies or even non-profit or institutional employers, is to further depress the labor market.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 07:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forgot Nihous.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The great victory of capitalism has been its ability to convince that any system that doesn't preserve capital's rent is illegitimate.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think is about legitimacy. It is just pragmatism.

The point is that it is a necessary condition for people to invest in the first place. You can easily observe that countries with stable political, tax and economic conditions receive a bigger share of capital investments, to their benefit (or dare I say the benefit of their people?).

You do not need to preserve capital's rent from all threats neither. Competition is ok (it is even preferable).

But what I am struggling most with your sentence is the implicit notion that capitalism is someone, that it has an aim or a goal ...  just a few steps away from conspiracy theory.

(I know I am being bad faith there.)

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm. Interesting issue.

To what extent is the metaphor accurate? Is the system unified enough to display intent, an aim, a goal? Does the global system have a goal, at least implicitly? Is the shared goal of self-enrichment dominating the system enough to give the whole system an intended goal, which may be different from the actual outcome?

You don't need an explicit conspiracy to have people act in concert ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, if 18 rich families in the US were able to grease up the politicians enough to get rid of the Estate Tax, what couldn't the likes of Murdoch do?

It is not conspiratorial to assert that there are a few (very few) people who had an almost unimaginable amount of influence on the consensus opinion. And a lot in economics and politics is the consequence of shifts in the consensus opinion.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's that at well. The herd instinct is quite strong - in fact, it's pretty much the default whenever you don't pay close attention.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:54:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Any advanced enough political system secretes its own justification. For example capitalism has had Hayek, etc...

Right now the narrative of capitalism, with unstated and stated goal of promoting the commpetion of individual "rational" desires in free markets, is less and less disputed in public discourse. It is considered as the only natural and legitimate mechanism for organising our societies. This wasn't the case 30 years ago, and was quite clearly the result of propaganda on its behalf - "Greed is good" in the 80's for example.

In France, the MEDEF (boss's union) is busy creating and promoting a narrative of "lets reward the risk taking of the entrepreneur" (ignoring the facts that the CEO's of large companies that are in this union bear very little actual risk themselves)...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:36:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can easily observe that countries with stable political, tax and economic conditions receive a bigger share of capital investments, to their benefit (or dare I say the benefit of their people?).

No. At best this is a very generous oversimplification. At worst it's simply wrong.

The countries that receive investment are those that promise the highest return on it.

Instability can be a negative factor because it obviously increases risk. However - there's absolute no evidence that directly links investment to stability.

In effect, stability is only one means to an end. As globalisation spreads it's clear that stability isn't required - at least not to the extent of the European model - because returns from developing countries are so high that increased profits more than offset increased risk.

Also, developing countries are easier to 'manage' by force because they lack democratic traditions, and because workers have much lower expectations of representation and democratic effectiveness and a much higher tolerance for sweat-shop working conditions.

When a country's labour costs are less a tenth of what they would be in Europe, businesses can easily tolerate a bit of extra security spending, and perhaps the occasional riot, because the bottom line still looks better at the end of the quarter.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 06:55:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 07:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, developed economies attract much more investments than developing ones:

Foreign Direct Investment (UNCTAD 2006)

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 08:48:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, wrong link!

Here it is: Foreign Direct Investment (UNCTAD 2006)

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 08:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I did not mean to say that there would be more investments coming from developing countries to developed ones than the other way around.

I just meant that stability brings about investment.  I used country, I could have used company, or project or sector or whatever. And whatever the source of the investement (cross-border or domestic).

Now someone will tell me that investment brings stability, and not the opposite. Well, both are probably true.

And yes, stability of the tax / legal framework is not the only factor at play in the investment decision.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 10:20:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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