Fascism:
LePen Sarkozy DeVilliers *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I also find your summary of economic programs somewhat biased (but it was not an easy task in the first place): - requesting unemployed people to accept jobs (even if not in the sector they are looking for) features quite prominently in Royal's programme, so why have it in Bayrou's only? - can you also substantiate why Royal deserves an 'ecology' tag more than any other candidate (but Bove or Voynet)? Is that because she suggested to close down some of the country's nuclear facilities? She backed down subsequentely, we all know it will not happen, and many here doubt this is a good thing for the environment in the first place. Once we have seen action in that field from the PS (nothing meaningful in the past 30 years), I am happy to reconsider. But to date, they are on a par with UMP (who actually quite significantly relaxed the framework for wind energy in the past two years, with 'visible' results).
But thanks for the post, it is certainly helpful to trigger a good discussion. 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
He has a constant need to threaten non-favorable press. He called Liberation's owner, saying that state subsidies would disappear once he is elected if the paper remains against him. He had Paris-Match's director fired for daring to speak about his troubled wedding.
One of his main policies is brutal treatment of illegals, pointing the blame for crime on the "stranger". He is constantly supporting the police forces, destroying the balance between the executive and the judicial branches of government. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
Would not you expect him to support the police, being their boss? As I said, his policies are hard-line, but I really do not think they threaten democracy (which the accusation of fascism implies).
Do you really think France was not a democracy for the past 5 years or will cease to be one if he is elected? 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
Chirac was sometimes very right wing, but his historic clientele was the peasantry... His support for the PAC might have hurt the EU, but not that badly.
Whereas Sarkozy, with the police as his clientele, is letting it develop some very bad habits, such as unpunished bavures in the projects, random violent arrests of people with a darker-skin... His policies undermining the separation of the judicary and executive branches do undermine democracy.
I'm not going to claim Sarkozy would suppress free speech for the left wing, but the Berlusconian way in which he treats the press and the press treats him had not been seen in France since de Gaulle. 5 years of this will mean little access for left wing -or critical- ideas in the mainstream press. See how easily the various scandals of this campaign have been defused - the press dares not questioning him. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
[Chirac's] support for the PAC might have hurt the EU, but not that badly
Chirac's stubborn support for the PAC has hurt badly France within the EU, and jeopardized The EU position in global talks. "Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
I agree (for once!) with fredouil and Rom: I think it is not relevant and even counterproductive to use the word fascism to qualify an authoritarian politician like Sarkozy. "Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
I am not disputing authoritarian (nor control freak). 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
They are totally open (much a sect can be) about their dictatorial ambitions.
you should get to know them.
Cut the crap, fredouil. Last time you guaranteed Le Pen wasn't going to get his signatures and be forced to stand down. As usual, Le Pen was making himself out to be a victim. You should get to know what you're talking about.
Les partis politiques français, mauvais élèves de l'écologie Le 12 décembre 2006, les quatre porte-parole de l'Alliance pour la planète (plus de 70 ONG d'environnement et de solidarité, soit plus d'un million de membres) ont révélé les notes attribuées aux partis politiques, à la suite de l'évaluation des décisions prises au Parlement et au gouvernement entre 1997 et 2006, en matière d'écologie. Cette notation s'est effectuée à partir des 24 propositions que l'Alliance pour la planète estime fondamentales. Les résultats sont les suivants : UMP : 4,5 / 20 UDF : 5 / 20 PCF : 5,5 / 20 PS : 6,5 / 20 Verts : 11 / 20 Ces notes permettent de relativiser les déclarations d'intention des candidats aux élections présidentielles de 2007 qui rivalisent dans la surenchère en faveur de la défense de l'écologie.
Le 12 décembre 2006, les quatre porte-parole de l'Alliance pour la planète (plus de 70 ONG d'environnement et de solidarité, soit plus d'un million de membres) ont révélé les notes attribuées aux partis politiques, à la suite de l'évaluation des décisions prises au Parlement et au gouvernement entre 1997 et 2006, en matière d'écologie.
Cette notation s'est effectuée à partir des 24 propositions que l'Alliance pour la planète estime fondamentales. Les résultats sont les suivants :
UMP : 4,5 / 20 UDF : 5 / 20 PCF : 5,5 / 20 PS : 6,5 / 20 Verts : 11 / 20
Ces notes permettent de relativiser les déclarations d'intention des candidats aux élections présidentielles de 2007 qui rivalisent dans la surenchère en faveur de la défense de l'écologie.
In a US notation system, UMP gets a F, UDF, PC and PS a E, and the greens a C.
I would continue to expect slightly better results form Royal than from Sarkozy in the future. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
now given how pressing the matter is, it may be enough of a difference to vote for Royal. 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
His discourse on immigration, which stigmatizes immigrants and blames them for our deficits, is substantially similar to Le Pen's ; his discourse about criminals is similarly concentrated exclusively on repression (while not doing anything in practice - there are fewer police forces in Seine Saint Denis (93) than 5 years ago, despite Sarkozy being the minister in charge for most of that period).
And his control freakery and agitated interventionism in the economy (cf his few months in the ministry for economy) display little real liberalism and lots more corporatism. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
'Liberal' applies to very few French politician indeed (in terms of economic policies) and you are right, Sarkozy is not one of them. And obviously it does apply to right wing politicians when it comes to social/cultural policies (in the US sense). 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
I am looking forward to the next few weeks on Eurotrib. 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
Second, I find it a paradox that the far left and communists (in France at least) have absolved themselves from the crimes committed, not by them for sure, but in countries and by regime they have relentlessy praised (is not that giving rethorical bones?) and that at the same time, very light and easy accusations of fascism are made against someone else. There is an imbalance there.
I do not intend to diminish or ignore the 'patriotic' crimes. I am not sure how you relate Sarkozy to them, though. Please advise. 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
And of course let's not get into how a fair share of the right defended Papon during his trial. (or still does, see Barre's latest declarations).
As for the far left, "trotskyists" (most of which don't necessarily defend trostky's policies nowadays) have never much approved Stalin nor Mao... Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
What about the preceding accusation of dictatorship?
I do not think that democracy will be threatened if he is elected to office.
I think it will be corroded. He won't dissolve it like Mussolini, but will further turn some of its institutions into a mockery of their nominal functions. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I was not relating this only to this thread, but the relentless accusation of fascism in the French lefty press and private circles.
"Mockery of their nominal function"
We disagree here. If he wins, I hope I was not wrong and you were not right about this. 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
It is, and AFAIK applicable to one or two on fredouil's list. Now, what does this have to do with you reacting only to my flippant rhetorical reply to fredouil's flippant rhetoric?
I am not sure how you relate Sarkozy to them, though. Please advise.
I better relay the question of a list of Sarko's recent underhand notes to afew (from whom I first heard of a large part of them anyway). *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Bayrou's offer is to have all long-term unemployed (he speaks of the RMI, the social minimum benefit) work in jobs useful to the community. He cloaks this in language to do with his village, forgetting most people don't live in villages, but in much more abrasive environments. He doesn't offer any major financing for his plan, either. He has a tendency to go in for Café du Commerce proposals like this, that you can hear anywhere but which don't really betray much thought.
I think the difference between Royal and Bayrou is significant here.
Personnaly I like the idea, and I think only a left wing politician will be able to implement it becasue it will be quite controversial. It could go hand-in-hand with an improvement in the benefits handed out in order to make it more palatable (I give you more, but you need to do something about it).
And thanks for the detailed and substantiated response. 'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
I honestly think Bayrou's proposal is demagogic. I wish I had a euro for every time I've heard someone ask why those on the RMI (minimum benefit) aren't forced to "work for it" by sweeping the streets etc. That's not quite what he says, but I think he's casting his hook in those waters.
It is essentially welfare for corporations that pay the minimum wage.
For example, see (french) what the government is allowed to do when someone is on the RMI.
More and more, it is considered normal for the government to intrudes into the lives of those needing help. That's part of the development of contractual and individualised help, where instead of giving general help to those in need (in need only because the current organisation of capitalism requires a certain amount of jobless people to function, and produces them if need be), the poor has to forsake dignity, showing all the aspects of his life to the "Assistante Sociale" and beg for help. All this social control is in the name of finding those that abuse the system... But the financial cause of this abuse is much lower of course than that of people and companies not paying their taxes
Of course, the side effect of the RMA, giving very cheap labor to private companies or even non-profit or institutional employers, is to further depress the labor market. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
