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Fascism is probably a bit too much, but Sarkozy has shown some pretty ugly sides.

His discourse on immigration, which stigmatizes immigrants and blames them for our deficits, is substantially similar to Le Pen's ; his discourse about criminals is similarly concentrated exclusively on repression (while not doing anything in practice - there are fewer police forces in Seine Saint Denis (93) than 5 years ago, despite Sarkozy being the minister in charge for most of that period).

And his control freakery and agitated interventionism in the economy (cf his few months in the ministry for economy) display little real liberalism and lots more corporatism.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 04:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he turned eaglier over the past 2 /3 years, thus making more room in the centre for Bayrou. I maintain however that the accusation of fascism is excessive (especially in a country when it is still not politically correct to link far left politicians to the atrocities committed in the name of communism).

'Liberal' applies to very few French politician indeed (in terms of economic policies) and you are right, Sarkozy is not one of them.  And obviously it does apply to right wing politicians when it comes to social/cultural policies (in the US sense).

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good to see you around.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rest assure I never ceased to be a regular reader.

I am looking forward to the next few weeks on Eurotrib.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no history of French communists and Trots committing crimes against humanity. However, there is a history of such crimes committed by the Vichy administration, and the colonial regimes from Algeria (not even officially a colony during the war) to Indochina -- and of latter-day 'patriots' praising or excusing or giving rhetorical bones to those who took part in it, including Sarko.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First, this was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that the accusation of fascism goes too far and should not be made so lightly. I do not think that democracy will be threatened if he is elected to office. It does not mean I do not understand why people think that his policies are excessive.

Second, I find it a paradox that the far left and communists (in France at least) have absolved themselves from the crimes committed, not by them for sure, but in countries and by regime they have relentlessy praised (is not that giving rethorical bones?) and that at the same time, very light and easy accusations of fascism are made against someone else. There is an imbalance there.

I do not intend to diminish or ignore the 'patriotic' crimes. I am not sure how you relate Sarkozy to them, though. Please advise.


'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now Sarkozy is regularly saying that "we shouldn't be ashamed of colonisation", etc...

And of course let's not get into how a fair share of the right defended Papon during his trial. (or still does, see Barre's latest declarations).

As for the far left, "trotskyists" (most of which don't necessarily defend trostky's policies nowadays) have never much approved Stalin nor Mao...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misčres

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First, this was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that the accusation of fascism goes too far and should not be made so lightly.

What about the preceding accusation of dictatorship?

I do not think that democracy will be threatened if he is elected to office.

I think it will be corroded. He won't dissolve it like Mussolini, but will further turn some of its institutions into a mockery of their nominal functions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:43:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not mine.

I was not relating this only to this thread, but the relentless accusation of fascism in the French lefty press and private circles.

"Mockery of their nominal function"

We disagree here.  If he wins, I hope I was not wrong and you were not right about this.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion

by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK. To get this discussion further away from flippancy with f, a different question: in which fields do you think Sarko trumps Bayrou?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in countries and by regime they have relentlessy praised (is not that giving rethorical bones?)

It is, and AFAIK applicable to one or two on fredouil's list. Now, what does this have to do with you reacting only to my flippant rhetorical reply to fredouil's flippant rhetoric?

I am not sure how you relate Sarkozy to them, though. Please advise.

I better relay the question of a list of Sarko's recent underhand notes to afew (from whom I first heard of a large part of them anyway).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The only thing it has to do with it is that I am sick of hearing that Sarkozy is a fascist. It just fell on you.

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
by Rom on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 10:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Add to that Sarko's discourse about and treatment of homeless people and/or Gypsies in Paris.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 20th, 2007 at 05:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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