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You're clearly not an economist.

I'm reading an economics textbook that claims that the business cycle consists of recession and expansion, and that "expansion is the normal state of the economy" while recession is abnormal. In other words, the economy normally grows strongly, except when it doesn't, but you can discount that.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 03:58:03 AM EST
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I'm reading an economics textbook that claims that the business cycle consists of recession and expansion, and that "expansion is the normal state of the economy" while recession is abnormal.
I guess we could write a book on this one, but clearly there are periods of economic history where expansion has not been the normal state--certainly the dark ages is a great example.  but in the US anyway we have had one recession in the last 16 years, and it was a minor one (though brutal for those that fell into the trap of the technology stock market bubble--but minor in terms of jobs).  Odd that period covers 8 years of Clintons and 8 years of Bush's, so I find it hard to put a real political spin on it--in fact history shows Democrats (clintons) lead to better stock market performance and wealth enhancement!

I think I would enjoy having a drink with migeru, but I think as we toasted each other my glass might be half full, and his half empty.  Which reminds me Migeru, you are obviously an economist at heart.

by wchurchill on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 04:34:38 AM EST
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Well, if you're ever in London...

Regarding the "normal state of the economy" and cycles, we had a discussion here of cycles in the UK housing market, and made the point that measuring growth rates "peak-to-peak", "trough-to-trough" and "trough-to-peak" give so widely different results that one has to be very careful in reasoning about these things. But the point is that what's "normal" is the business cycle, not any part of it. And if the latest US recession was minor, the recovery has been slow and "jobless". So maybe the business cycle is getting less pronounced, but that also means slower growth on the expansion side. [By the way, my "prediction" in that thread has already failed, in that the price index we had been discussing is growing again after plateauing for about 2 years, breaking any possibility of extrapolating past behaviour beyond the plateau]

And that is assuming that, long-term, the 3% growth rate is not an expansion phase of a very long business cycle with a pronounced collapse at either end. When people say complete collapse of our economic system cannot happen, I cannot but think of the end of the Roman Empire, or the 14th century in Europe. It has happened before and it could happen again.

As for the bit I paraphrase from the economics text I'm reading, I was reminded of reading Goldstein's classic Mechanics book, where he discusses phase diagrams of the harmonic oscillator and bifurcations, and he has the howler that "fortunately, bifurcations are rare in practice". That was one of the biggest blind spots of classical mechanics, as was discovered in the 1960's and 70's, shortly after the book was published.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 04:54:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you're ever in London...
well next time in London may be a little far off,,,,but,,,,Drew owes me a pint, and he will, I'm sure, include you and your wife in that hosting, and I'll be happy to host the dinner when that time comes.  but as much as I love europe, my business schedule won't get me there until summer of '08--and that is (gasp) paris--<snark on the gasp>.  mais,  le plus ca change,,,,,qui sais?
by wchurchill on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:18:06 AM EST
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So maybe the business cycle is getting less pronounced, but that also means slower growth on the expansion side.

But that's not what has occurred, in truth.  The Clinton expansion was the fastest (and longest) peacetime expansion in history.  The Reagan expansion comes in at No. 2 or 3 -- its competitor being the Kennedy/Johnson one.  Despite the moderation in business cycles that we've seen since the Depression, growth rates have generally been a bit faster, with the exception of (I can only assume) the '70s.

Even taking the Bush II expansion, growth has not been very weak.  Job growth really blows compared with the Clinton years, but, to be fair, comparing those two expansions is a bit like comparing Mike Tyson with Muhammed Ali.

(Write your own Tyson-Bush joke.)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:22:52 AM EST
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Above-trend growth at full capacity is not "normal," just as recession is not "normal," so it's not quite so clear-cut.  Economies growing too fast will chew through their spare capacity rapidly.  That's what pushes labor markets into causing inflation.  Spare capacity is gone, so companies begin poaching workers from their competitors, or they attempt to bring, for example, older workers back from retirement.  In the end, wages rise, which is what we've begun seeing, as I understand it, in America over hte nine months or so.  With spare capacity gone, companies cannot expand to meet the new level of demand, which inevitably causes inflation and higher interest rates.  The process goes on.  Sometimes it leads to recession, while other times it leads to a slowdown and eventually a return to strong expansion, as we've seen over the last year or two in Britain.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:12:19 AM EST
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Above-trend growth at full capacity is not "normal,"

That's why you're not an academic economist any longer ;-)

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:13:26 AM EST
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Too true, mi amigo, too true.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:23:23 AM EST
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Can I at least play one on tv, though?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:27:16 AM EST
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You can have a syndicated column on a blog.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:32:29 AM EST
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Good point.  Can get away with more outrageous stuff on the blogs, anyway.  To Hell with those prudes on CNN.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:37:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Drew J Jones the next Brad DeLong? Next on CNN.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:38:46 AM EST
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Might actually be the one big story less worthy of coverage than Anna Nicole Smith, but, hey, it certainly beats the American Idol route.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:46:56 AM EST
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You don't look nearly Aryan enough to be a CNN anchor, Mig.  Get off the set, and make way.  I'm sure they've got a blond chick lying around somewhere to take over.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 07:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(And, with that, away goes any hope of Drew appearing on CNN.)

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 07:18:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, is the business cycle normal or not? In that case, above-average growth in the expansion phase is a normal part of a normal process, but then so is recession. As ATinNM put it last night,
One of the more amusing aspects of the Global Financial Market is the bewilderment of the participants when they discover markets go down as well as up.


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:36:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The entire use of the word "normal" makes no sense to me.  Business cycles are normal, because markets are not perfect.  Factors don't adjust immediately.  As I've pointed out, the 2001 crash was not, technically, a recession, since we never had two consecutive quarters of contraction.  (Why, by the way, do my fellow economists insist on calling it "negative growth"?  Is that anything like "jumbo shrimp"?)  And that's, obviously very odd looking at history.  Same story in Britain.  Yes, I'd say that above-average growth is certainly a normal part of a normal process.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 05:44:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I made a purely logical point with the post above. The particular critique of Krugman might be just a negative case of the "appeal to authority" fallacy.

I went on with economic points in a subsequent long post, below.

by das monde on Sun Mar 4th, 2007 at 06:23:52 AM EST
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