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Well, I know a large number of science graduates (and graduates, and post-graduates) working in service jobs. I call that an absolute research gap, never mind the relative one.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 06:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or an over supply of graduates in certain areas.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So we don't need to educate more, do we, which would only lower the price of their labour even further.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. It's all just a result of inefficiency due to government intervention in the market anyway.

Now, I'm off to call for more government subsidies for research and development of the type the market would like. I have a lobby group that knows precisely what the economy needs.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The labour market for R&D is not static. Or at least it is not supposed to be. It is very bad if it is static.

To put it another way, graduates should be starting up their own businesses.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but there is no capital for that.

I was going to suggest that microcredit or venture capital would be the solution, but the private sector seems to have little appetite for it. And, of course, there's the issue of the entrepreneurial/risk-taking culture (or lack thereof) among the graduates.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. It may be, as someone says, that this is not everyone's cup of tea. I certainly don't mean to suggest that every graduate should found a company (just a lot more than are doing it now). But at least you could encourage it, for instance by offering students a course or other assistance on starting up a company. If the private sector is unwilling to lend money, the government should consider giving funding (could give them a nice return on investment if they do it right).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not everyone should fund a company, but I think that an effort should be made to help people over the hurdles of access to capital and lack of entrepreneurial attitude or skills.

And, of course, the suggestion is not that everyone starts a company by themselves, but as a partnership with others they know so that the group has the necessary mix of skills and attitudes.

But access to capital is the essential ingredient, and it is jealously guarded.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ack, fund <- found

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:58:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A theoretical physicist, an astronomer, a mathematician?

But even beyond fundamental research, I'm not too friendly to the idea of exposing university research to even the possibility of dependence on private companies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:29:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, can we please separate research and education? The research university is not the best way to deliver a good higher education for the masses, but just an elite structure.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but if you try to create an elite research/university stream and a separate more vocational stream then your middle classes don't want to go to the vocational stream at all. Education as conspicious consumption.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who said vocational?

In the US you can get a better basic science education at a 4-year college than at a research university. Not only are the resources more focused on teaching, but at a 4-year college, as there are no graduate students, professors use undergraduates to run research projects. There is hardly any undergraduate research at research universities.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean vocational in a very, very wide sense.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whether a dependence develops depends upon how private companies are drawn in. The largest problem I see is that they may be used by the government to cut the level of funding either for research or for education. If the government funding is kept up (and increased a bit, as it should be), I really don't see the issue.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What about private involvement with a special education tax?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 11:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a big fan of policy-based taxation (I expect that it tends to make policies unpopular, aside of the overall loss of oversight). Aside of that, it's not really private involvement, is it? Something that could be thought of is a corporatist structure where business voluntarily pays into a central fund and collectively negotiates the areas on which it is to be spent with government and the universities.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 12:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you really expect business to pay more voluntarily?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you were just snarking, but that was only part of the problem at where I was - there was a general tendency to consider third stream (industry funded) money to be dirty and morally objectionable. Research should come from the state, period. End of story.

Except of course, if the money came from Shell. Then it'd be alright. (!!)

So I would not be surprised if some of that particular culture is more pervasive within Europe - but this is a question I have which I've not researched and is extremely hard to research sitting behind a computer in South Africa.

by Nomad on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 02:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with accepting non-charity money from a for-profit organisation is that it generally comes with intellectual strings attached.

So, yes, maybe private businesses will find it in their hearts to put money into an independent research trust, but I don't think it's likely.

If a researcher wants to consult or be employed with a private business, fine, but university funding shouldn't depend on that.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 02:50:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the TU Eindhoven and the TU Twente? That to me are two good examples of what can happen when industry and university research start co-operating successfully. They do some really neat stuff there - and are big in the patents. It looks definitely win-win - but they are not "classic" Dutch universities.

I agree that a university funding for research should not depend solely on private business funding. Which is why it should remain third stream money.

Migeru:

The problem with accepting non-charity money from a for-profit organisation is that it generally comes with intellectual strings attached.

Let me answer that one over three years...

by Nomad on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:01:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I didn't know about those, but I did know about RIM's Mike Lazaridis funding the Perimeter Institute by endowing a $100M fund. But this is a "charitable" contribution into a trust, and neither RIM nor Lazaridis have any levers to affect the research that is carried out.

But it doesn't happen often.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. Just call it part of corporate social responsibility.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 02:58:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not everyone is business oriented enough to want their own. I could never work for myself. I wouldn't get anything done, and would probably starve to death. Many other engineers I know would likely be similarly poor business owners.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:34:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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