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Was it in Early Greece that a steam machine was invented?!

Anyway. If the Greeks invented a steam machine but did not implemented it, can we see here a failure of... of... free run of civilization... or something? What did they miss for making the technological jump? Was it just a wrong social system? Or did they need isolation from dominant cultures?

by das monde on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 11:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but didn't Rome also basically have pretty modern plumbing and sewage systems.  I think a lot was lost in the middle ages in the western world.  and I'm very weak on this point, but I think the same was true in China, where discoveries were made, but then lost for centuries.  I'm sure someone else could comment more knowledgeably than I have, if they care to.
by wchurchill on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 02:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first steam machine, the Aeolipile was invented by Hero of Alexandria (1st century CE)



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 02:57:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They just didn't have the need for steam machines, they had slaves instead.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 04:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They thought they don't need steam machines. So "useless" machines would been sold easily with modern marketing ;-) "Hey, you can employ your slaves to bring wood!"

Did Hero himself find it useless? What applications did he imagine? Nothing helpful for himself personally?

But I wonder, if Romans were not near around at that time, wouldn't Alexandrian inventors be able to build around a more mechanised polis?

by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 04:32:27 AM EST
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And I am sure if you had wanted to sell an expensive mechanism to a wealthy patrician you would have had no trouble.

It's possible that the thing was just a toy, a demonstration tool for the physics of steam, like the things you can buy in a science museum.

The æolipile that Melanchton illustrates is a (not particularly powerful) device for converting heat into rotational motion. In the technological context of the 1st century, I can imagine using that for a potter's turntable, but  a steam machine would have been too expensive for a potter. And then there's the problem that the æolipile as depicted doesn't operate in a cycle as the steam escapes. So, you not only need a supply of fuel, but a constant stream of water.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 04:45:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose one could have combined the æolipile with an Archimedes' screw to pump water, diverting some of the water into the engile. But would that have had a positive "water return on water invested"?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 04:48:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is this a hypothesis that Hellenian Greeks were making important breakthroughs in technology and science, as mentioned in a parallel thread. They were not just making sporadic discoveries, they were advancing scientific methods. It can be reasonably guessed that they could have developed more interesting things, if not a turmoil and change to the Roman culture, which did not particularly appreciate efforts to make things better than they already are.

Speaking of particians or other wealthy "investors": It is not necessarily optimal that technology development decisions depend on their needs, inclinations and understanding. In particular, they tend to be more greedy than the society norm - which is not a fortunate aspect regarding concerns of this diary.

by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 06:57:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is not optimal, but that is what you have.

Two questions. When you say "optimal", what are you optimising? And what would be an "optimal" mechanism for allocation of surplus wealth?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:05:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The best possible optimization might be dangerous. The (probably) most effective free markets set the questions of this diary. I prefer multidimensional optimization: when one of variables is optimized usefully enough, I would not put much effort in improving it by small margins.

Immediate holders of surplus wealth would of course prefer to keep it to themselves. Whatever social agreements or deals are proposed, there will be some better off without the agreements (in the sense of game theory models). They may even use their power to prevent new agreements, or weaken exsisting ones. (As it happens now, with the global initiative from Washington DC.) They may use measure like propaganda to keep control. On the other hand, the rest of society players may decide that it is unfair to them to have no distribution. In extreme cases, they may have enough power to impose or persuade any distribution whatsoever. Of course, harmonious agreements are preferable. The "optimal" situation is perhaps when the power balance is in favour of the majority seeking a redistribution, and they persuade surplus wealth holders to apply multidimensional individual optimization, along the lines: is it the sum of your ambitions to grasp as much wealth as possible for this moment? Don't you want to be sure that this wonderful society will keep functioning happily in this marvelous environment for indefinitely long time?  

by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to some book I read he also made one variant with metallic mirrors reflecting sunlight to heat the steamengine. Voilà, sun power!

Then you just need a slave to polish the mirror.

However, there was no indication to wheter he used this for any practical purpose. Think he was more of an inventor then an entrepreneur.

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by A swedish kind of death on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same dynamic for ancient Egypt.

I think the friction between organized labor (seeking greater wages and other benefits) and the capitalists / management (seeking lower wages, higher productivity, and lower overall costs) was a big driver of 20th century technological innovation, as that friction helped drive the demand for the products of such innovation. Slaves, having no power, meant that friction did not exist in ancient Greece and Egypt, and thus there was no need for productivity enhancing technology (this is admittedly oversimplified because other stresses can create that kind of demand - growing population vs limited land for agriculture, for example, requiring greater agricultural productivity).

I assume this has been studied by scholars but I've never looked into it.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 05:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What they were missing? The right kind of mining industry perhaps?

Now if I recall correctly the history of steam-engines it went something like this:

The brittish steamengines were for the first hundred years or so solely used in the brittish mining industry. First to pump water to prevent mines from flooding and later on to haul stuff out of the mines. To haul stuff you need rails, so you need a certain knowledge of railmaking too.

These early steamengines were rather big, (with later standards) inefficient, stationary things. Since it was costly to have them running a lot of try and error was applied to make them better. One famous succesfull improver was named Watt.

After a lot of development steamengines could be used for other things like running trains. They were not that good though. In the famous competition were Stephensons Rocket defeated Ericssons Novelty, one competing design was disqualified after it turned out they had hid a horse in the train. (Bet it would have won.)

Eventually laws of thermodynamics were formulated which gave an idea of what the machines actually did and some ways to calculate improvements and not just doing the old try and error. This is btw, were games like civilization often gets it wrong, steamengines => thermodynamics, not the other way around.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:59:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is btw, were games like civilization often gets it wrong, steamengines => thermodynamics, not the other way around.

A very important point.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 09:08:42 AM EST
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The "accepted" answer to why Hellenistic civilization didn't go industrial is that their technosystem had no need for artificial energy sources. Human labour was cheap and plentiful (After all Egyptians had built the pyramids in this way).

Whereas England in the 18th century didn't have that much labour; most of the peasantry was tied to the land, and labour wasn't as cheap.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 09:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
an entertaining fictional treatment of this crucial period -- the decades of early capitalism and steam engines -- is Neal Stephenson's massive trilogy:  Quicksilver, The Confusion, The System of the World.  an ambitious and not entirely successful undertaking, fascinating in its researched details more than for any novelistic quality.  The Leibniz/Newton quarrel is a major subtheme of the plot, and mining -- both silver and coal -- features prominently also.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Mar 12th, 2007 at 04:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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