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Can you expand on how exactly you find that paragraph fascinating and (especially) troubling?

I found it fascinating because it had never occurred to me that there was an "Anglo-Saxon" version of cities in contra-distinction to a "Latin" version of cities, and that these versions were based on different cultures and values.  I guess I had always assumed that cities emerged due to general factors that were common to any conglomeration of lots of humans living within a physical space, combined with the peculiar geographical features and limitations of their locations.  I had not considered how much impact culture and outlook could affect the physical make-up of a city.

I found it "troubling" (maybe not the right word) because when I first read it, it felt like "top-down" bureacratic "city engineering" (which I am less comfortable with, though I see its neccessity, assuming certain conditions are fulfilled) was being contraposed against "bottom-up" "community" and "collectivity" (which I am a fan of).

Having said that, I just re-read margouillat's diary, and realize that I misread it the first time.  I am not sure that I have totally gotten his idea of the city, but the first time I thought he might be advocating a certain "impersonal" administrative approach to organizing the city to correct and reign in the "natural" tribalistic, self-ghettoizing, even self-particlizing tendencies that people have -- again, the top-down administrative approach.  But I think perhaps what he is talking about is that the city -- with the right awareness, intelligence, and discipline, yes, perhaps the administrative super-ego -- can and has helped humans to live a richer, more complex, more interconnected communal existence than would otherwise be possible without that communal "discipline".

His concern about community is clear from this sentence:

I shudder at the idea that they might get "autonomous" one day, shutting most of my fellow countrymen in social darkness.

And the new possibilities of communal living he describes in this paragraph:

As the city needed new people (immigration) they were very open about beliefs and religions, as anyhow the City itself was founded by a god, a half-god, or at least a hero!  Moral was not so tight (you had people from various origins so inbreeding wasn't a risk as in villages)... And an underground economy could be tolerated... Then recuperated!

Again, I'm not suure if I "capte" his ideas quite yet, and I am still a little bit intimidated byy "the city", but I think I understand it better.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Mar 6th, 2007 at 09:11:21 AM EST
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The soils of Italy are friable as compared to the heavy loam north of the Alps.  The stick plow, widely used throughout the Mediterranean, is useable in these soil types either pulled by humans or a small'ish animal.  With this land use patterning there is a strong tendency for the population to concentrate and then 'live-in' those concentrations.  

In distinction, the heavier soils north of the Alps requires a different technology: the moldboard plow and oxen (horses) a set of equipment not available until the Middle Ages.  Therefore, the Germanic peoples: Germans, Saxons, Swedes, & etc tended to concentrate on stock raising at first.  This required a dispersed population.  In the north 'cities' were primarily established to be trading centers - I'm thinking of Hedeby - or centers of power and production - the Celtic oppidum.

by ATinNM on Tue Mar 6th, 2007 at 09:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'v just discovered this thread and am in the process of finding time to digest it :-)
bruno-ken is right in his re-reading of the diary, as through my not so fluent writing, search of words, etc. I was pointing at.
It doesn't oppose to local variations and geographical differences in tools. Nor the evolution of trade centers ( I call those the "Caravanserai" or "funduq" concept)...

As always, behind the obvious generalization, there are greater subtleties.
It was more meant as a wink to the "we are the cities we have" that seems to sustain a passionate debate in this thread :-)

If we must live in a global world, let it be with our differences and the understanding of those...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 10:18:27 AM EST
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