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Speculation and pyramid schemes are not the same. But if profit margins of speculation come from new entrants alone, I call it an emergent pyramid scheme. The reason is pretty clear: if volume increase is the only fuel, the system would collapse when there are no new buyers. The biggest loosers are the last buyers. Regular traders might be loosers as well, which is worse than a designed pyramid scheme - or not, if scammers are punished. I see enough similarity between perils of both scenarios to refer to them by the same term.
by das monde on Tue Mar 6th, 2007 at 10:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well just understand that your writings on these topics will not make sense to people in business or economics, because you are giving accepted terminology new definitions.  and most of those people reading your work will just discard it, since it will appear you are not prepared to write on the topic.
by wchurchill on Tue Mar 6th, 2007 at 10:49:42 PM EST
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I think I am very clear with presenting what I mean.

It is not exactly my purpose to enlighten all buisinessmen or economists. I don't care of those who would take more trouble in detecting language formalities than getting the point. What we are discussing is that certain things in market economy walk like a pyramid scheme, quark like a pyramid scheme, and most importantly, expand and collapse like a pyramid scheme.

by das monde on Tue Mar 6th, 2007 at 11:16:44 PM EST
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I don't see what the problem is. If you think of the equity market as an entity, if newcomers put money into it in the hope of future returns, its value will appear to grow.

wchurchill - how exactly is this different to what's happening today?

Given that there's really very little of the technological innovation that you describe happening today - there's a lot of 'cheaper', but comparatively little 'new', I think the pyramid description is a perfectly apt and revealing one.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 07:42:45 AM EST
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There is an incredible amount of technological innovation happening today in the fields I follow closely.  I've given numerous examples before, and am not going to waste my time going through it again.  Some people can see the future and how it's going to be changed by innovation and technology, other can't.  The former group does better economically and psychologically by participating in changes that help mankind.

As to understanding the implications of pyramid marketing, versus speculation, versus "bubbles", there is plenty to read and gain insight.  It doesn't matter to me if you and das monde choose to confuse them.

by wchurchill on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 03:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As a matter of academic terminology, a pyramid scheme (or pyramid scam) is defined by the rigid structure of participation. Matrix schemes work the same as sustainability regards, but they have other participation structure.

On the other hand, the Russian GKO bonds are often given as an example of a pyramid scheme, though they were traded within the stock market structure. If we call this case a "created pyramid structure" in the stock market, then it makes compatable to speak about "emergent pyramid schemes" in stock markets. That is what I am talking about.

For most consistency, the cases of Ponzi & pyramid scams, matrix schemes, and created/emergent pyramid schemes in stock markets should be grouped to one term. You may come up with a better English word combination, but here is a formal definition, as general as I can:

Entrant growth - a trading structure where profit margins of beneficiaries come predominantly from new entrants.

The special case of entrant growth in stock markets can be called... bubble growth!?! Unless there are objections from bubble specialists, we may offer a mechanism how the bubbles grow in economy, or even quantify them perhaps!  

by das monde on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 09:58:12 PM EST
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