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We also do not like or identify with some of the labels to identify conservatives like Neoconservative, Neoliberalism etc.

Neoconservatism is one specific branch of conservatism. Neoliberalism... not really, it is a special branch of liberalism, though closely tied with branches of libertarianism dominant in present-day USA (shared heroes & inspirators: von Mises, Hayek, Milton Friedman, largely identical views on the economy). Understand neoliberalism as one ideology about how to bring about libertarian paradise.

A warning in advance: the US liberal-conservative, Keynesian-libertarian dimensions don't map the ideological spectrum elsewhere, the frequent use of the to you unfamiliar word neoliberal may not be the only novelty.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:43:58 PM EST
Thanks, Dodo.
But the use of "Neocons" has now expanded way beyond what it originally meant and thus losing sight of what it stands for. You do realize that it was a name coined by its opponents? There was a guy at Thom's Forum that coined the phrase "Neocon economic policies" (as well as Neocon education policy, etc...). When asked directly about it he could only refer to Milton Friedman. It is not a branch but a philosophy about international relations.

Like when you try to point out the contrasting dichotomy in Keynesian-libertarian, I consider myself followers of both schools of thought.

As far as Neoliberalism, I am still searching for its meaning and it appears to be all encompassing of what "capitalism" use to mean.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You'll grow to love my expedient use of the terms neocon and neolib, I'm sure.  

Your posts are so disciplined and measured.  Do you both work as a team?  And how did you progress all the way from Thom´s site to ET?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you (anyone) does not take offense at when I laugh at things I read.

LOL out loud on your first sentence.

Thank you for your compliments.
As my friend Brent recently said:

Ronald posted: "Hi, Brent. Did you check out ET?"

Christ, Jesus Christ, how can a person inflict calumny upon Ronald Rutherford? (Christ knows I've tried!).

No, sorry, have not yet checked out ET. But thanks for the tip.


Why do you think my posts are "disciplined and measured"? Yes we do sometimes get into the same thread together and have fun.

Well Robert (rdf) is a sometimes poster at Thom's and he challenged us and invited us over several times. So finally I took the challenge. Loganthor still visits Thom's more. Ren also is a regular of Thom's from a long time ago. And he does not talk to me. LMFAO.

Even got banned a couple of times there.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Even got banned a couple of times there."

I just "knew" that, but history doesn´t have to be repeated if it´s learned.


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, as long no one here tries to tie my opinion to my upbringing. I think it is a little over the line saying you must believe X,Y or Z based on an authoritarian household.
NP.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford
by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the use of "Neocons" has now expanded way beyond what it originally meant

Yeah, that's right. Some use it for all Bush supporters, for example.

You do realize that it was a name coined by its opponents?

Yes, Harrington, but granpa Kristol & co took it on.

It is not a branch but a philosophy about international relations.

Where is the contradiction? Aren't you reducing political ideology to views on the economy here?

I consider myself followers of both schools of thought

Well, and I neither :-) My point is that in the wider world, there are more schools of thought than these too, and even the ideas of those schools can appear in different constellations.

Neoliberalism, I am still searching for its meaning and it appears to be all encompassing of what "capitalism" use to mean.

That would be a rather narrow view of views of capitalism.

Personally, I would summarize the basic ingredients of neoliberalism thus:

  1. 'efficiency' is an absolute (not relative, contextual) economic quality, increasing it is desirable
  2. no state involvement in the economy can match the 'efficiency of a market
  3. freedom of enterprise = economic freedom
  4. economic freedom is the most basic freedom, all other freedoms can (will) arise from it
  5. because of the former, the political goal should be to deregulate and privatise as many functions of the state as possible, and thus increase economic freedom, even at the prize of other freedoms. (Destroy [most of] the State with the weapons of the State.)

I feel the last point is what gives the ideology its speciality.

In contrast, there are many different modes and ideologies of capitalism content with various roles for the state beyond protection of ownership rights and law enforcement, from social democracy to Gaullism. Also in contrast, even many right-libertarians have different views on how to achieve the goal (if they think about practicalities at all), while anti-corporatist, mutualist, not to mention social libertarians (rare in the US) don't think too high on any of 1-5.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where is the contradiction? Aren't you reducing political ideology to views on the economy here?

Then how would you describe a political party that has to have positions on all topics and a special interest that is focused on just one aspect of the economy, labor, consumers, environment? Similar to how green parties tried to shoe horn in policies that may actually hurt the environment.

Well, and I neither :-) My point is that in the wider world, there are more schools of thought than these too, and even the ideas of those schools can appear in different constellations.

Sorry to hear that. But I did not say my schools of thought were limited to those two. I have taken an interest in the Structuralist views on developing countries as interesting theories I need to explore more fully in the near future.

Thanks for your input on Neoliberalism. With your permission, I may want to use your points. (Rem: Ignoring smiling face placed here.)

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then how would you describe a political party that has to have positions on all topics and a special interest that is focused on just one aspect of the economy, labor, consumers, environment?

As "political party" and as a "lobby/advocacyspecial interest group". Do you want to suggest that neocon's strong focus on foreign policy is an exclusive focus, and that it serves a special interest? (What would that be, lemme guess, Israel's?)

Similar to how green parties tried to shoe horn in policies that may actually hurt the environment.

What is similar to what?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As "political party" and as a "lobby/advocacy special interest group". Do you want to suggest that neocon's strong focus on foreign policy is an exclusive focus, and that it serves a special interest? (What would that be, lemme guess, Israel's?)
As far as everything I have read about the Neocons as well as the PNAC site tells me that they are an advocacy interest group. They are far beyond the Israel conflict. I actually like their position on Taiwan/China issues. Unless you know more than me, and can point to a paper that is "Neocon Economic Policies for the 21st Century", then I will continue to assume they are an advocacy group.

So I don't follow all the Jews under the bed story line. Do you like George Galloways positions?

What is similar to what?
As an advocacy group transfers to a political party, it is easy to end up advocating for positions that run counter to the primary goals.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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