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Upthread, we considered the ideas of a certain Crichton Miller regarding how ancient mariners could have measured longitude, with the help of angle measurements on stars and the Moon. After thinking over it, I saw that there is some merit in the idea. Now I thought it over a second time, and summarize both the method and its error factors below.

  1. The basic idea is the same as in the modern era: longitude is derived from the difference of the local time of the ship and a fixed observatory that issues almanachs. (1 hour = 15 degrees.)

  2. Crichton posits the comparison at the ship's local midnight, though calculation would be possible at other times. The trick is to bring an almanach that gives the equatorial positions of the Sun relative to some stars (the "rectascension", which can be considered a stellar longitude), and then wait until the stars are at that angle from the Meridian (the North-South direction on the sky).

  3. To measure this angle, Crichton's navigator holds a cross in front of him with a plumbine hanging from one end of the crossbar. He must hold the bar so that the end of the crossbar is at the equatorial pole (so that the plumbine marks out the meridian), and the cross at the eclyptic pole (relative to which he knows the Sun's position from an almanach).

  4. Due to the swings of the ship, there is an irreducible angle error from the plumbine, which converts 1:1 into error in longitude. The positioning error for the two poles in debrees converts into an error in longitude c. 0.3 times that big. E.g. a 3' [' = arc second] swing of the plumbine or a 10' error in finding the poles would both result in 3' longitude errors. I note though that thinking more about it, at least the second error source could be much reduced by choosing two stars near the poles rather than the poles themselves, preferably in parallel direction.

  5. A further error is recursive(ly reducible). The navigator took the rectascension of the Sun from an alamanach -- the angle is a function of time, as the Sun moves around relative to the stars. This would pre-suppose our knowledge of the local time of the almanach-making observatory. So in theory, if there would be no other error factors, we could reduce this error by starting with a guess of our longitude, then progress with the calculation, then use the end result in place of the previous guess, then repeat this over and over: e.g., reduce the error recursively. However, the longitude error from our initial longitude guess is a mere 1/366.25636th of the error of our initial guess, so I now see this error is not significant.

  6. The local time of the almanach-making observatory is to be determined by measuring the position of the Moon relative to the stars, and then looking up for what time the almanach gives that position. The rationale is that the Moon is the celestial object moving fastest relative to the stars, so there is good time resolution. (Today with precise instruments, you could do this with the planets.)

  7. A first error factor comes from the fact that the Moon appears as a disc a little under half a degree (30') across in the sky, so our navigator positions his instrument at its center with an error. The Moon-disc center positioning error converts to an error in longitude around 1/27.4th of that.

  8. The Moon is close to the Earth, and thus it appears at a different position relative to the stars when viewed from different locations at the same time. This is called parallax, and was measured by Hipparchos by comparing eclypse obervation records, most likely for an eclypse in 129 BC. The longitude part of this is another recursively reducible error. In theory, our ancient navigator can start with a guess of longitude. Parallax error is greatest when the Moon is near the zenith on the equator and is in perigeon, then the error of the lonngitude guess converts to a parallax (and thus Moon position error) 0.018 times that. But that converts to a rather brutal error in longitude merely reduced to 0.5 times that of the original guess! This is the chief problem for the method. And as soon as the non-recursive errors add up to something of similar magnitude, even recursivity won't help.

  9. There is parallax in latitude, too, which makes it difficult to make simple almanachs with the Moon's position given to stars appearing nearby: you go significantly further North or South than the obervatory, and those reference stars will no more be in the Moon's path, but above or below.

  10. The almanach-makers' job is further complicated by the fact that the Moon's orbit is elliptical and tilted to the equator: what they have to predict is not a simple linear progression, and the reference stars must change over time.

  11. I am also sceptical that ancient mariners could have got that precise almanachs about both the Sun's and the Moon's positions, not to mention the Moon's parallax, and that they even knew about the principle of recursive error reduction.

In summary, this method would have needed a guessed position as input, yet it could have only brought an insignificant improvement upon it, and ancient mariners might not have known all the relevant science needed for its application.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 05:42:54 AM EST
8. The Moon is close to the Earth, and thus it appears at a different position relative to the stars when viewed from different locations at the same time. This is called parallax

But you are not observing at the same time, you are observing at the same local time. So, you trade off the longitudinal parallax error from (8) for the error in the rectascension of the sun (5).

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 05:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, in the method as I described above, when observing the Moon, you want to derive the almanach-makers' local time at the same moment as the local time derived from measuring Draco.

Parallax wouldn't count if you compared local times at the differing absolute times when the Moon was in the same position in the sky. Then you also need the absolute time difference. That absolute time difference is (ignoring point 10) proportional to the longitude...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 06:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the fixes stars look exactly the same if you are at the same latitude at the same local time on the same night, and that it's deviations in the position of the moon at that same local time that are being used.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 06:34:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, longitude would be derived from the fifference between the apparent positions of the Moon in the sky. E.g., the Moon's position relative to the Meridian would have to be derived (that's no problem), then correct for the Moon's motion, then calculate time difference from angles (parallax is hidden in this), and then calculate longitude angle. I should think more about this to evaluate the involved errors.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 06:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, upon re-reading, I see I was mis-reading it all along, unlike you.

I thought about the method's details. On one hand, it can be used to establish a first approximation of latitude without an initial guess: the apparent motion of the Moon between the moment of the observatory local midnight and the ship getting into the same position (relative to the stars) on the same day is roughly the same as the latitude difference per sidereal month in sidereal days. You don't even need to correct for the Sun's motion relative to the stars.

However, this time, we have another parallax, not because of differing observing positions, but because we aren't watching the Moon from Earth's center, but its surface. When the Moon is near the horizon at the equator, the distance from the Meridian exceeds the Moon's geocentric position angle from the same Meridian by those up to 61 arc seconds [somewhat less when the Moon is not in apogeon].

Once we have the more or less correct position angles (the Moon's changing distance from the Earth means an error of up to c. 10% in the parallax, up to 7'), we still have the bigger problem of the elliptic nature of the Moon's orbit. Near the perigeon and apogeon, the Moon's angular speed is more than 10% faster/slower, assuming constant speed can mean up to 1.5 degrees error [when the ship is at latitude 180°].

So, for precise position determination,
a) the almanach-makers should be aware of the elliptic nature of the Moon's orbit,
b) the navigator must be supplied with a data series or formula (epicycles?) giving the time differences corresponding to the Moon's location,
c) the navigator must be able to calculate parallax.

Realistically, I wouldn't expect a predicted Moon position precision for the ancients better than 15'. That would convert to 6.85 degrees precision in latitude, or 760 km at the equator.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 04:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks DoDo.

Starting with number 7), tell me where I go wrong.

The moon is 0.5 of a degree wide (give or take) when seen from earth.  This means that if you drew a moon next to a moon next to a moon all the way around its orbital path you could draw 720 moons.

You say that the navigator necessarily has an error when finding the centre of the moon.  Could you expand on that?  If I had, say, a circle cut in a piece of metal that (give or take) represented the moon, then by positioning the moon within that circle, the plumb line would cut straight through the centre and down...so one could see the stars in another cut out, maybe one with degree markings--even a grid of some kind (fine hairs stretched tight?)

So you are saying that the human eye-moon relationship has a necessary innacuracy--error-of 1/27.4th of the width of the moon?

  1. and 10) I don't understand "Parallax error".  Would it help if the almanac ran through the entire sol-lunar cycle, so accuracy would remain constant as the moon made its various deviations from the hypothetical perfect globe moving in a perfect circle?  If one knows that on day X there will be a human-viewing error of Y%, then one could use that known error in the calculation (like sighting an inch above the target because you know that given the relationship of sight to barrel to bullet, you'll hit the target?  Am I way off?)

  2. had me thinking of ice ages again!  Before the last great melt, the ice came down to 45 degrees north, so we can imagine people working in a 45 degree area north (and south?)  Is that enough for serious problems to arise?

Would it also have helped these (mythical) mariners if they had had regular observatory points along the trip, land based observatories who knew their position relative to the observatories east and west...over a large area?  (eg: Egypt, Persia, India, China, and divisions thereof?)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 08:00:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
land based observatories

I'm thinking of a network of astronomers, spreading out from central points, so the mariner could arrive in a port and know "the time" at that port and how it related to their home port.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 08:02:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Provided stupendous measurement accuracy, longitude (or universal time) can be determined by Sun's position alone. Suppose we have an almanac that gives one of the following information for (say) London for each day:
  1. The position (relative to stars) of the Sun at the sunset;
  2. Zenith (sky) coordinates at the sunset;
  3. Zenith coordinataed exactyl one hour after the sunset (because stars are better observable "somewhat" later than at a sunset);
  4. Zenith coordinates at solar midnight;
  5. or similar.
The coordinates would form a discrete set of 365 (or 366) points on the ecliptic, about 1 degree apart from each other. If you measure the same moment at other point with London's lattitude, you will get an interpolated point between 2 almanac's dots, distanced proportionally by longitude difference. Whola! In how many parts can you instumentally subdivide 1 degree?

(For other lattitudes, almanac dots can be routinely adjusted.)

If you measure position of the moon at fixed solar moments, you are more lucky, since synodic month is 29.53 days long, so daily moon positions from a reference point (London) differ by 360/29.53 = ~12.2 degrees. You can be 12 times more precise. Better still, measure Moons position at a lunar moment (moonset or so) - sidereal month is 27.32 days, so you have ~13.2 degrees interpolation spans. Isn't this what Crichton tries to do?

Can the difference between sidereal and synodic months employed? I doubt it. It seems to me that you have to employ the fastest movement (discarding Earth's rotation) across the skies. Apart from Sun and Moon, we have Venus moving in 95.6 degrees span around the Sun in 224.7 days twice, Mercury moving in 56.6 degrees span in 88 days, and much slower planets. The average angular speed for Venus and Mercury (relative to the Sun) is 0.9 or 1.3 degrees per day, with fastest movement across Sun's disk unobservable - that's hopeless.

If our civilisation is about to collapse, with technology setback for long centuries, it would be smart to launch a couple of "bright" satelites with the lapse period of exactly 12 hours (or maybe better, half of sidereal day, 11 hours 58 minutes, 2 seconds), with the most conveninet orbit circular equatorial (or ecliptic, respectively).

by das monde on Fri Apr 27th, 2007 at 11:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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