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(oh so humbly!)

First unit of time: the day.
Division: day and night.

(For the astronomer with lots of time: place a stone on top of a wall where the sun comes up.  Repeat for 230 days.  The sun will then, (sort of), go back down the stones, then back up, then back down)

Second unit of time: the year.
Division: into four.  (the central stone in the row of stones divides them into two and the sun passes up and down the row, so four divisions)

Add the moon.

Start watching when the moon is just visible after the sun has gone down.  (Crescent moon.)  Note that each day the moon arrives later.  It is lagging behind the sun.  It lags more and more until the moon is only just getting up when the sun is going down.  Then the moon is only visible at night, then it is only visible late at night, then it is lit by the almost-rising sun, then it is hidden by the sun and then you don't see it for a bit, and then it reappears, in the evening, just after the sun has gone down (crescent moon.)

Third unit of time: one mo(o)nth.

Now become a keen mathematician.  Realise that you can divide the sky up into "moon chunks".  The moon moves a certain distance away from the sun each day and finally comes back to where it was: a circle.  Divide the circle into moon chunks.  How long does it take the moon to go all the way round and back to where it started?  29.5 days, more or less.  let's say 30 and you can divide your cicle into thirty chunks.

Plant some sticks in the ground in a circle.  Each stick stands straight up but is in the direction of one of those moon chunks.

Now: you have four fingers on each hand.  Splay out your fingers and measure off roughly equal measurements between each stick.

Next time the sun comes up it creates shadows on the sticks.  As the shadows interact, work out a pattern.

Fourth unit of time: I have no idea whatsoever what I have just created!

Here's how ancient civilisations have divided up the day:

The hour was originally defined in ancient civilizations (including those of Egypt, Sumer, India, and China) as either one twelfth of the time between sunrise and sunset or one twenty-fourth of a full day. In either case the division reflected the widespread use of a duodecimal numbering system. The importance of 12 has been attributed to the number of lunar cycles in a year, and also to the fact that humans have 12 finger bones (phalanges) on one hand (3 on each of 4 fingers). (It is possible to count to 12 with your thumb touching each finger bone in turn.) There is also a widespread tendency to make analogies among sets of data (12 months, 12 zodiacal signs, 12 hours, a dozen).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour

Circles can be divided into two, then four, then eight, then sixteen, then thirty two, then sixty four, then one hundred and twenty eight, then two hundred and fifty four, then five hundred and eight...

You could use those numbers to measure time.

Now...which values of time would you like to use ;)

We have sixty seconds and sixty minutes (minute as in tiny as in the smallest discernable measurement on a sundial--well, that's what the article says), twenty four hours...

The Ancient Egyptian civilization is usually credited with establishing the division of the night into 12 parts, although there were many variations over the centuries. Astronomers in the Middle Kingdom (9th and 10th Dynasties) observed a set of 36 decan stars throughout the year. These star tables have been found on the lids of coffins of the period. The heliacal rising of the next decan star marked the start of a new civil week, which was then 10 days. The period from sunset to sunrise was marked by 18 decan stars. Three of these were assigned to each of the two twilight periods, so the period of total darkness was marked by the remaining 12 decan stars, resulting in the 12 divisions of the night. The time between the appearance of each of these decan stars over the horizon during the night would have been about 40 modern minutes. During the New Kingdom, the system was simplified, using a set of 24 stars, 12 of which marked the passage of the night.

Now...you have some timeframes.  Day night.  Month.  They'll do for now.  We don't have to work, we live in a land of plenty and make love when we can.

So...we are bored with making love one evening.  We sit outside and stare at...the stars.  We watch the moon going past them.   ?????  The moon is moving relative to the stars.  We become mathematicians again, divide up the sky. Well, there are all those stars...why not make up some patterns and then, given that we know the sun comes up and goes down and the moon goes slower than the sun and given that we know we're drawing a circle...we could use our sticks!  We could build large screens at the stick points and watch the stars we can see from our now-blinkered site.  Note some of the brighter ones, draw some imaginary shapes to remind us of them...

...and then we'd notice that each month there's a difference...

...between the type of moon and the stars behind it.  The moon is moving relative to the stars over its monthly course!  It gets back to the same stars after 27 days, but it isn't the same kind of moon (full, crescent) until 29.5 days!

Enough!  Build an atomic clock!  Hold on.  The sun...is atomic...

...I think it all depends what you wish to measure.  If you wish to have an abstract measure...but how?  Time must tick relative to something...  How about

the duration of 429,228,004,229,952 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the strontium atom at rest at a temperature of 0°K.

;)

(All errors my own; all corrections appreciated.  The sun and the moon relationship--I've been watching it develop for the past six days...)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 at 01:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are non-anthropomorphic reasons for a duodecimal number system.

Arithmetical: 12 has a larger number of divisors (1,2,3,4,6,12) than any other number smaller than 18.

Geometrical: it is trivial to divide a circle into 12 equal sections, as you don't even need a variable-girth compass.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 at 03:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it is trivial to divide a circle into 12 equal sections

For the non-mathematical among us (or the non geometrical)--who would be me--I had to look it up.

Here's what I got.

To draw a circle you need a compass of some kind.  The point is the centre and the line you draw is the circumference.  Take the same compass, put it's point somewhere on the circumference and then draw another circle, which will bisect the orginal circle in two places.  Move the compass to one of these bisection points and repeat.  You will now have...three marks on your circle, because...because your new circle will bisect the circumference at a new point and also at the old point...keep going until you have...six divisions.

Now look at the circles you have drawn.  They meet.  Draw lines from where they meet to the centre of the original circle...voila!  The circle is divided into twelve!

Did I get that right?

(And I'm presuming it is slightly out because the circumference is the diameter times pi, or the radius times pi times two...?

And lo....maths!

(Thing is, as I understand it the greeks weren't inventors of this knowledge; they learnt it over in Alexandria, and so I am assuming it is ancient knowledge, far pre-dating the greeks, but we call them the discoverers because...well, a reason I can think of: the destruction of the library in Alexandria.)

And as this all started, for me, with Gaianne's comment about knowledge being destroyed, how about this gem?

After hearing of Roman Catholic Maya who continued to practise "idol worship", he ordered an Inquisition in Mani ending with a ceremony called auto de fe. During the ceremony on July 12, 1562, a disputed number of Maya codices (or books; Landa admits to 27, other sources claim "99 times as many") and approximately 5,000 Maya cult images were burned. The actions of Landa passed into the Black Legend of the Spanish in the Americas. Describing his own actions later, Landa wrote that:

We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they (the Maya) regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction.

Only three Pre-Columbian "books" of Maya hieroglyphics (also known as a codices) and fragments of a fourth are known to have survived. Collectively, these works are known as the Maya codices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 at 04:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Greeks established Alexandria.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 at 05:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alexandria was created by Alexander the Great

The famous Library of Alexandria was created by Ptolemy I Soter and its first librarian was Zenodotus of Ephesus.

BTW, the second librarian was Eratosthenes of Cyrene, who was the first to measure the Earth's cicumference...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 at 07:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Humble bow.

My mind acheth.

So...I have read up on the library and have some questions.

1) Why were the greeks running a library in Alexandria?  

My initial assumption: because the Pharaoh stumped up the cash.

Demetrius himself was a former ruler, no less than a ten-year tyrant of Athens, and a first-generation Peripatetic scholar. That is, he was one of the students of Aristotle along with Theophrastus and Alexander the Great.

After Ptolemy I Soter, on of Alexander's successful generals, secured the kingship for himself of conquered Egypt, Theophrastus turned down the Pharoah's invitation in 297 B.C.E to tutor Ptolemy's heir, and instead recommended Demetrius, who had recently been driven out from Athens as a result of political fallout from the conflicts of Alexander's successors

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/Students/Ellen/Museum.html#RTFToC3

Oh, intrigue!  Greek generals bashing about, establishing a centre of learning in Egypt.  Why Egypt?

Well...was it a historic centre of learning?  Or was it...opportune?

Scholars were invited there to carry out the Peripatetic activities of observation and deduction in math, medicine, astronomy, and geometry; and most of the western world's discoveries were recorded and debated there for the next 500 years.

So.  It was founded by a greek dictator exile, another greek declared himself king of Egypt, and soon enough the dictator was translating, starting with the Old Testament.

Aristeas, writing 100 years after the library's inception, records that Ptolemy I handed over to Demetrius the job of gathering books and scrolls, as well as letting him supervise a massive effort to translate other cultures' works into Greek. This process began with the translation of the Septuagint, the Old Testament, into Greek, for which project Ptolemy hired and housed 72 rabbis at Demetrius' suggestion. [Letter of Aristeas 9-10].

Sounds to me as though the greeks had the cultural and economic clout to set up a "world library" and had greeks as librarians, and the works of greeks such as Aristotle and Plato; but the idea was to collect the world's knowledge which, for me, pre-supposes a world of knowledge they wanted to capture, for many reasons but I assume at least some were scientific.

But Ikernov nussink!  I'm just following a thread...in my head...

...What about the vedic traditions?

I can't see that knowledge was unshared.  My guess: the various knowledge bases were seeking to coalesce under the shadow of power-battles among the rich and powerful.

So I'd expect some greek bias in the library, but I'm only interested in...what?  In the capacities of human thought and invention I suppose.  And also (look around us!) at the power of...human power...to break knowledge, to destroy information deleterious to the human power...that would seek to break it.

I must thank you, Melanchthon, and you too, DoDo!


Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 at 07:59:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While we're on the topic of crop circles and division by 12...

You can make that crop circle with a single piece of string, a stick and a plank.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 05:57:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slightly more challenging:

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 05:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That one cannot be done with a compass and a straightedge.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 06:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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