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You just keeping raising the tax until you get the reductions you need.

If you want to set hard limits, do exactly that - give everyone a tradeable carbon ration and aggressively go after anyone who 'spends' beyond it.

How? How is my carbon ration offset against the food, or furniture that I buy?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 08:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... argument.

The basic situation that the FT detected is that in a cap and trade market with a slack cap, the "low hanging fruit" under the cap and trade regulation includes a lot of things that are not really gains.

Tighten the cap and tighten the regulations, and you substantially increase the amount of actual carbon emissions reduction achieved, as well as making for a much thicker market, therefore substantially reducing price instabilities.

My preferred social dividend in the US context is half distributed per resident citizen, half distributed in proportion to payroll taxes paid.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 11:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not if you announce the increases well in advance on a rolling basis. Business doesn't, or shouldn't, demand certainty. It does need predictability: if this happens then this will happen. If carbon emissions aren't on target in five years time then the tax rate will rise. You can make decisions around that. It's chopping and changing that makes investment decisions harder to make.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 11:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... which gives a baseline on top of which is added the permit cost to industry, and certainty on quantity outcome.

If we rely on a carbon tax as a single silver-bullet, then we need to adjust the carbon tax annually in case it fails to meet targets. A quintennial adjustment would be too large and attract too much political opposition.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 12:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can project the changes out in advance on a rolling (say) five-year basis, so 0.3% a year for the next five years, and add the change for the next period next year and so on. We're not trying to get a sudden change here - we can't - but a gradual one.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 12:10:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... tax will persistently high-ball, but I expect in the US political economy for the tax to persistently low-ball, so a five year ratchet is a recipe for increasing the amount by which it falls short, and the size of the increment required to catch up will galvanize political opposition on a quintennial basis.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 12:24:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My preferred social dividend in the US context is half distributed per resident citizen, half distributed in proportion to payroll taxes paid.

Explain ?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 11:54:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You collect some form of pure green tax ... intended to change prices, but for which you do not wish to drain purchasing power from the economy ... the amount is split into two halves. One half is distributed in equal amounts to ever resident citizen, the other half is distributed in proportion to payroll taxes paid.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 12:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My preferred social dividend in the US context is half distributed per resident citizen, half distributed in proportion to payroll taxes paid.

I could go along with that after the health affect costs of pollution have been deducted from the fund.  Until these various externalities are quantified and monetarized the MBAs running the world won't give a damn.

by ATinNM on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 04:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand why deducting them from the fund would change anything. Adding them to the fund would seem to be a lot more useful in terms of making the MBA's take the pollution into account.
 

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 11:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's exactly why rationing is the only scheme that will work - because it will make carbon consumption completely explicit in every item that's for sale.

You think those flowers from Nigeria are cheap? They are - but wait until you see how much they cost in emissions.

Manufacturers would have to create carbon accounting systems. But if you tax emissions, you have to create a carbon accounting system of some sort anyway.

You wouldn't necessarily have to account for every last mg. Cars are already aligned in emission bands. It wouldn't be impossibly hard to group other items in similar bands.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 03:19:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... as long as the petroleum refineries and oil product imports are required to buy carbon permits for their carbon content, then the consumers of the fuel will have the cost of the permits included in the price. Cars, trucks, a backyard gas or diesel electric generator to run the lights and music at an outdoor event ... whatever.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 at 11:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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