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and as you say
(Of course, the guy is in the business of selling gold and silver, so take that into account)
.

the dow in terms of computer chips has exploded.

but the dow in terms of uranium is horrible.

of course the euro in terms of uranium is horrible, and gold in terms of uranium is horrible, and crude oil in terms of uranium is horrible.

the real measure of the Dow, or the Nasdaq, or the S&P 500 is not in oil or in uranium, it's in dollars.  just like the real measure of the EU exchanges is in euros.

what you say is clever but obfuscating.

by wchurchill on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 05:28:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Dow in euro is what will get people from Europe, it is the only relevant measure for them.

Please explain to me how can this be obfuscating on European Tribune?

I'm curious, thanks!

Over the last ten years (apr1997-apr2007), european buying in STOXX50E got slightly better euro returns than if they invested in NASDAQ (2.0x vs 1.9x). I did not try wider indexes.

by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 06:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the obfuscation was aimed at valuing one's income and assets in gold and oil.  I elaborated on this in a response to Migeru below.  So I agree that just as Americans on this site should value in dollars, Europeans should value in euros.  I should have made that distinction in my response to Jerome, but was caught up in the idea of valuing in gold or oil, or as Migeru's reference discusses, cans of soup and pasta.
by wchurchill on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 12:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we suppose that a US government sees its task to demonstrate strength in economy by stimulatig Dow value (in dollars), wouldn't be the easiest way to achieve that to take steps (blown up deficit spending and such) that depriciate dollar?

I think that Bush's administration did a lot (if not everything) to increase "demand" for speculative stocks and decrease demand for dollar. Oh yeah, that's what they are preaching - supply-side economy, push all the money into stocks.

by das monde on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 06:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Dow [I suppose we're talking the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average">Industrial Average here] doesn't represent "speculative stocks" but big industrial ones. Intel is the only component of the Average that's listed on NASDAQ (the more speculative of the big markets), the rest are on NYSE.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 06:54:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
correct.  and actually I don't use the Dow in benchmarking my personal investments.  I used broader indices such as the S&P 500, the US total market indices, the Morgan and Stanley set of international indices.  I use the Dow here and in other broader discussion formats because it is a number that is more widely known, and it tracks the other broader US indices reasonably well.
by wchurchill on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 12:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, Microsoft is, as well.  That's to be expected, given the importance and  dominance of Intel and Microsoft.  NASDAQ is typically associated with tech stocks, although HP, IBM and Verizon are all on the Dow and the NYSE.

The Dow is, as you say, less speculative.  It's essentially the big dogs in American business.  If you want to know where America is headed, though, the S&P and NASDAQ are probably the better choices, given the larger number of companies.

DJIA is where you dump your money when you want to play a conservative game, because people are always going to buy things from Wal-Mart and Johnson & Johnson.  It's more stable, whereas NASDAQ is all over the place.  NASDAQ companies are often engaged in fiercely competitive markets and can get tossed around like it's nobody's business.  Intel and AMD come to mind.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 09:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Financial Sense guys have a known bias (they are gold nuts, for many of them, and thus anti-inflation ultra-hawks), and I flagged this, but they do have a point that the real returns on the Dow have been pretty mediocre in this decade, even when expressed in dollars.

Expressing the Dow in euros is a lot more relevant to us here in Europe - and definitely legitimate and meaningful in terms of "value". The fact that the dollar has lost 40% of its value against the euro over the period has to mean something, right?

I mean, market cannot be that wrong?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 06:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yes I agree with your comments on the euro, and won't elaborate here, because I already have to Migeru and Laurent.  In my own mind I was commenting on gold and oil from your comment, and really should have excluded the euro.

you can cherry pick dates to prove anything you want on returns on the American stock markets, since stock markets have cycles, though the long term trend is up.  The Dow was 10791 at the beginning of the decade, which was Jan 2, 2001, so it is 21.6% higher today, six years later, and that is definitely lower than the longer term growth figures.  If you chose January 2000 the returns would be far less.  If you chose 1995 they would be far better.  The long term returns from US equities are about 10% nominal and 7% real.

 But the US economy is incredibly strong in recent times.  There has been one very minor recession since 1991, which is an incredible period of prosperity, particularly thinking of the challenges of the tech wreck, 9/11, a poorly chosen and poorly run war in Iraq,,,,just to pick a few.

by wchurchill on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 01:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're supposed to be able to express the price of anything in terms of the price of anything else, and the "natural" value unit should be related to your assets/income and your expenses. So pricing things in oil, or in Euros, makes sense depending on who you are, where you are and what you do.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 06:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the "natural" value unit should be related to your assets/income and your expenses. So pricing things in oil, or in Euros, makes sense depending on who you are, where you are and what you do.
 I think this is very well said Migeru, with the exception of pricing in oil.  IMO, an American who plans to live primarily in the US should therefore value his earnings and investments in dollars.  s/he should diversify investments around the world, with a good percentage in Europe and Asia, so he can take advantage of those growing economies, as well as any dollar weakening such as we have experienced in the last six years.  (though of course the worm turns, and a strengthening dollar will have the revrese effect.)  but inflation is low in the US, relative purchasing power is extremely high, and your standard of living is very much tied to those aspects of the currency.  and conversely a european should manage in euro's, with imho similar worldwide diversification.

but managing in oil or in gold does not make sense to me, nor does managing your affairs in cans of soup or pasta, as your referenced article points out.

by wchurchill on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 at 12:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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