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Note 1: I'm not including financial institution debt (column of the Fed Z1 flow of funds report and something similar from European central banks) because I don't know if it's meaningful to add them, I suspect yes but nobody has been able to answer my doubts yet.

Can you explain your doubts?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 10:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'd like to be sure that when a business or individual borrows X from a financial institution the X does not pop up in both columns. Banque de France does  report financial institution debt and other debt in separate papers, and in particular "endettement interieur total" does not seem to include financial debt (the source of my small doubt).

If you know someone proficient in central bank reports, I'd be very happy to know the answer there.

by Laurent GUERBY on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 10:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which two culumns? GDP and Debt?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 10:27:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No the "two" columns are "households, non financial institutions and business" debt and "financial institution debt".

I'm talking about debt accounting only here.

by Laurent GUERBY on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 10:29:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought abut that, but how can the debt appear on the "financial institutions" column? It's an asset, nt a liability, on their balance sheets.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 10:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private banks can borrow money from other private banks and central banks I assume, in that aspect they're not different from regular business.
by Laurent GUERBY on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 10:45:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, here are two people - both of well above average intellect, and both well-versed in matters financial - who are scratching their heads in relation to the structure of national accounts ie their debits and credits.

Which just goes to show what utter and complete bollocks it all is.

Smoke and mirrors screening the totally unacceptable and unsustainable Reality of a deficit-based monetary system..

Consider UK Plc: it's the only Plc with no "Equity" on the balance sheet, and with accounts which show a debt, but not the assets they are secured against.

It's as though Mig's family accounts showed the mortgage, but not the house!

Instead, we see UK Plc's "assets" consisting largely of bank-issued claims over houses - over 70% of UK money supply.

Un-effing-believable. In every sense.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 01:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Consider UK Plc: it's the only Plc with no "Equity" on the balance sheet, and with accounts which show a debt, but not the assets they are secured against.

As the risk of government default is almost by definition [or in theory] negligible, government debt doesn't need to be secured, does it?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 05:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Governement debt is by definition secured against the whole country - that's why, with the sole exception of Gasprom, no company has a higher rating that the country it resides in.

Of course, there is then the issue of government being acually willing to reimburse its creditors, which affect the state rating.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 07:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Corporate debt is always less secure than a government's, because governments have the power to forbid companies in their country to pay their debts - both to external creditors (as the multiple debt crises and convertibility/transferability restrictions have shown) or even to internal creditors (the major innovation of the Russian moratorium in 1998.

Gazprom had a better rating than Russia when it was using its gas export contracts as collateral, because the only way it could default on that debt was to stop delivering gas, a much more violent step nowadays, diplomatically, than just defaulting on payments.

That's why we were happy to lend money to Gazprom, effectively taking Gaz de France risk while being paid margins sized on Russian risk (then - Russian risk today pays very little). Ah, good ol' times...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 09:06:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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