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I don't like the idea of everyone having a "right" to any specified standard of living. No one does. What we can afford depends on the health of our economy.

What we do in the welfare state is we decide collectively that we do not want those less fortunate to live in squalor, and hence we help them.

And with less fortunate I do not mean those who are born in poor families, but those who become less fortunate, no matter in which social class they began (as we have decided that class mobility is a good thing and have state funded education, free of charge for students).

We

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't advocating a right to a "specified standard of living" - that is a different issue.

I was advocating the equitable sharing of the fruits of "the Commons". And I have yet to see a convincing refutation of that as a principle.

Private "ownership" of land, knowledge and other Commons are privileges, and those in receipt of these privileges should not keep all the benefits.

Whether such pre-distribution will be enough for a generally acceptable standard of living for the un-privileged depends on how developed a country is, I guess.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:29:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These are the rules for welfare recipients in Sweden. I think it is rather exactly a definition of a minimum standard of living. Very much itemized for what everyone should be able to afford. (From the pages of Uddevalla commune, arbitrarily selected since the local authorities seems to keep this info. National rules, though.) And note, it is 'standard of living', not 'quantity of lifestyle' or any such sillyness. Which is right, I think.

Socialbidrag - Ekonomiskt bistånd Social welfare - Economic aid
Livsmedel
Kostnaden för hemlagad, näringsmässigt fullvärdig och varierad kost.
Food
Costs for home cooked, nutritionally complete and varied food.
Kläder/skor
Avser det vardagliga klädbehovet för hela året, skoreparationer och vissa tillbehör som väska, klocka och paraply.
Clothes, shoes
Evereyday clothing needs for the whole year, repair of shoes, and some accessories such as bags, watches and umbrellas.
Fritid/lek
Aktiviteter som det är rimligt att alla får möjlighet till, ex att läsa böcker, lyssna på musik och idrotta.
Leisure/play
Activities that are reasonable for everyone to be able to do, for example reading books, listening to music, participate in sports.
Hälsa och hygien
Kostnader för ex tvål, tandkräm, hårvård, blöjor och mensskydd.
Health and hygiene
Costs for soap, toothpaste, hair care, dipers, and femenine hygine products.
Förbrukningsvaror
Kostnader för rengöring, vård och skötsel av bostaden samt klädvård.
Cleaning supplies
Costs for cleaning and care of the home and clothes.
Dagstidning, telefon, TV-licens mm
En ettårsprenumeration på daglig tidning, abonnemangs- och samtalsavgift för fast telefon och mobiltelefon, TV-licens (ej kabel-TV) samt brevpapper, kort och frimärken.
Newspapers, telephone, TV-licece, etc.
One year subscription to a daily newspaper, phone fees and costs of phone calls for landline and mobile phone, TV-licence (not cable) and stationary, letter cards and stamps.
Tilläggsbelopp utöver riksnorm
Nedanstående poster ingår också i försörjningsstödet men har inte schabloniserats på grund av stora lokala och individuella skillnader. Det sker alltid en prövning av om de faktiska kostnaderna är skäliga.
Man utgår från vad en låginkomsttagare normalt har möjlighet att kosta på sig:
  • boendekostnad
  • hushållsel
  • arbetsresor
  • hemförsäkring
  • läkarvård
  • medicinkostnader
  • akut tandvård
  • glasögon
  • medlemskap i fackförening och arbetslöshetskassa
Additional costs over national norm
The below items have not been defined nationally due to the large local and individual differences. One always makes an individual investigation to see if the actual costs are reasonable.
One assumes that low income takes normally should be able to afford:
  • living costs
  • household electricity
  • work related travel
  • home insurance
  • medical care
  • costs of medicines
  • emergency dental care
  • glasses
  • membership in union and unemployment ensurance
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 06:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that is not a non-negotiable standard. In a country poorer than Sweden, the acceptable minimum standard of living will necessarily be lower, because of what Starvid calls "the health of the economy".

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 07:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, I don't think I argued anything else... A collectively agreed minimum standard of living... Maybe I misunderstood Starvis's comment? But withing the context of a nation, yeah, there should be a right to a minimum standard. Hmmm, what are we arguing about, again?
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 07:41:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Say, things like the right to housing in France.

The issue is that "liberals" don't believe in the right to an outcome, they believe in the right to "fair rules".

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 07:43:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does "harvard" mean in Swedish? Diapers? LOL

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 10:16:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be haardvaard, pronounced "horvord".

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 10:21:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Careful, though. "Horvård" would be "whore care"...
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 10:33:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

I hate vowel length.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 10:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And:
"hair" == "hår", pronounced much like "whore"
I can quite imagine some Swede entering a barbers place somewhere saying: "I vud like to get my whore cut.."
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 10:39:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be a much funnier association for 'the little red-brick school up the river'. "Hair care" less so.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 10:30:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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