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In an argument, the stasis can be considered the location of a dispute, the place where a speaker takes a stand.

This is vital to grasp.  The best argument one can muster will fail when the other side places the discussion on the ground of their choosing.  All too often we on the Left unthinkingly let the Neo-Lib/Cons establish the stasis.  When we do that we give them an edge almost impossible to overcome.

by ATinNM on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 04:50:14 PM EST
The most blatant example of this I know of is the abortion debate.  Somewhere along the line, the pro-choice politicians ceded the field and let the argument turn from the health and lives of women into an argument about when exactly a fetus turned into a baby and at what point it became the taking of a life.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 06:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a good example, and a complicated one, because the anti-choice people figure that if you accept their argument at the stasis of definition ("the life was taken"), then the value question will decide itself.   That's not actually true, as some arguments in medical ethics literature have made clear.  (There was a famous argument about what happens if you wake up one morning and find yourself hooked up to someone else's life support.  You're told that you have to remain on the machine for nine months or the other person will die. The ethicist argues that this is untrue: because you didn't ask to be put on the machine, you are free to unhook yourself even if the act will result in the death of the other.)

But more to the point, we can go back to the conjecture question and ask, "What is actually happening?"  And we can see that event as the reduction of harm to the woman, as an assertion of her moral right to freedom, as a lot of other things that have nothing to do with the definitional status of the fetus, which is dubious at best and which should not be allowed to trump every other consideration.  

by kellogg (kellogg[dot]david[at]gmail[dot]com) on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 06:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a relevance to my view of ET in this also. I find the 'values' debates here to be the most interesting, since they are often far more to do with perceptions than facts. There are a lot of great people here who I would class in my own way as 'engineers', and a few 'artists' (and quite a few oscillating between the two).

But the 'stand' here is esssentially owned by the engineers.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Apr 29th, 2007 at 06:33:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How do we add "values" to "engineering?" (One point of Modernism was how to add "engineering" to "values" & that hasn't worked-out so good.) How do include, reach for, the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in a discussion on - say - national agricultural policy without some agreement on what the Good, the True, and the Beautiful is and/or could be?  Is that a discussion we should be having first?  
by ATinNM on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 01:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We'd probaby have to start with good, true and beautiful ;-) Is that what we want? Are they the best words we have? Should we be using words at all?

Brilliant point about Modernism! Another one I shall steal ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:34:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We should cease trying to define the indefinable and move instead to "relational" logic, I think.

ie Definition in relative terms.

Damned if I know how THAT might work!

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there any difference between this approach and the one I was proposing ;-) You are bringing perceptions into it again.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indefinitely!

"Reality is defined by the questions you put to it".     J A Wheeler


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just clarifying ;-)

BTW I have to put you in the artistic engineer category. Sort of samurai.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From Wikipedia

The logic of relatives, short for the logic of relative terms, is the study of relations in their logical, philosophical, or semiotic aspects, as distinguished from, though closely coordinated with, their more properly formal, mathematical, or objective aspects.

The consideration of relative terms has its roots in antiquity, but it entered a radically new phase of development with the work of Charles Sanders Peirce, beginning with his paper "Description of a Notation for the Logic of Relatives, Resulting from an Amplification of the Conceptions of Boole's Calculus of Logic" (1870).

I've been intending dip into this after the eleventy-million other things I have on my plate clear.

by ATinNM on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 09:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Tis better than starting with the bad, false, and ugly.

& You're Welcome.  

by ATinNM on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 09:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In an argument, the stasis can be considered the location of a dispute, the place where a speaker takes a stand.,/i>
This is vital to grasp.  The best argument one can muster will fail when the other side places the discussion on the ground of their choosing.  All too often we on the Left unthinkingly let the Neo-Lib/Cons establish the stasis.  When we do that we give them an edge almost impossible to overcome.

Hey AT, I agree with you but choosing the location of the stasis doesn't mean ignoring the gross misrepresentations of basic facts by the rightwing when they state their storyline. In fact, despinning their framing as it occur may enable us to establish our stasis of choice. For example, in the other thread, I said that I couldn't understand how we could let rightwingers get away unchallenged with using "assistanat" in a public debate because it is devastating to let them pretend unopposed that their system favors "rewards according to merit" in opposition to the "welfare queens of the nanny state". Neolibs have been pounding this music for 30 years with great success also because progressives have ignored it. No mention of "assistanat" should be permitted without a discussion of "corporate welfare" and the cost of toilet sits sold by Halliburton.

by Fete des fous on Mon May 7th, 2007 at 08:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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