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If I understand correctly Dodo's point, the problem isn't depressurization caused by the Bernoulli effect (900mbar is barely noticeable if the transition is slow) but quick pressure variations because of tunnels, passing-by trains...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, those are caused by the Bernoulli effec, and DoDo mentions them because they are present even for standard speed trains, so all fast trains need some sort of pressurisation. At 150 Km/h the pressure drop is only 9mbar, but when you go into a tunnel or pass another train it can increase a lot (I'd guess a factor of 4 for passing trains, so 35mbar at 150 Km/h).

If the pressure drops below 900 mbar at the top speed you would be dizzy because you'd suffer from something akin to altitude sickness.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just looked it up and the density of air is 30% larger than I used in my calculation (adding 1 significant figure, here ;-) so we're talking a 165mbar drop at 160 m/s. Nothing to sneeze at.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I was saying is that 90 kPa isn't low enough to even start to cause altitude sickness ; it corresponds to an altitude of 1000m. Altitude sickness very rarely starts before 3000 m...

What I wonder is if the TGV is actually pressurized (keeping a inside pressure of 100 kPa) or just dampens pressure variations (more likely, because much less expensive)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:49:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At 350 km/h I get a 6 KPa drop, which is not much. The problem is that if you pressurise the train for a 6 Kpa pressure difference and then run the train at a speed causing a 16Kpa pressure difference, you can have some problems. I would also imagine pressurisation gets harder as the pressure difference mounts, and not in a linear fashion.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:47:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm. As far as I know, pressure regulation is kind of standard for air-conditioning, and in trains, higher than surrounding pressure is even preferred as a means of reducing dust buildup.

TGV lines have less tunnels, so making the trains airtight was less of a priority than for the German ICE. Still, though I'm not sure about what was built into the first generation and the TGV Atlantiques, from the TGV Réseau (the second subgroup of second-generation TGVs), they have a strong pressure isolation (for which is needed: double windows, isolation at car joints, and say pressurized air into the rubber bands around doors).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 07:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, no, at least not from simply speed: at tunnel entrances and train crossings, compression pressure waves play a role (and high presssure not just low pressure) that have to be taken into account. In model tunnel entrance tests conducted in Germany, an extrapolated 2-5 kPa pressure difference acted on various parts of the train.

As for limits on pressure changes, I found the following international railway norms:
1 sec: ≤0.5 kPa
3 sec: ≤ 0.8 kPa
10 sec: ≤ 1.0 kPa
60 sec: ≤ 2.0 kPa
entire tunnel crossing: ≤ 10 kPa

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 07:45:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both are problems (some people are sensitive to pressure variations even on the scale of minutes, e.g. train accelerates), though the latter is a bigger problem.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:46:02 AM EST
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