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when Paris will be 3 hours from Munich or 5:35 from Barcelona, beginning in 2009.

The second may be true, but Munich in 3 hours, maybe in 2025...

Contrary to the triumphant tone of the article, it is actually still a problem that railways and countries seem to keep up firewalls between their high-speed systems.

  • France+BeNeLux - Germany: though with the existing parallel Thalys and ICE trains between Cologne and Bruxelles, and the future Paris-Frankfurt, Paris-Stuttgart services, trains and services will now be properly linked up, they (will) do so across non-high-speed sections. No high-speed beyond the Belgian border near Aachen, the TGV Est européenne first leg will only go beyond Metz, and no true high-speed is planned across the border or from Karlsruhe to Stuttgart in Germany. So Stuttgart, will already be 3h40m away from Paris from this summer, reducing to c. 3h10m.

  • within Germany itself (which would be necessary as a central EU artery): from Stuttgart to Munich, apart from the first 100 km, only finishing the upgrade to 200 km/h is planned, so Paris-Munich in 5 hours would be the best I'd expect in the medium term. (From this summer, 6 hours would be possible, but there won't be direct services.)

  • France-Spain: there will be high-speed line all the way from Sevilla to Perpignan/France, and also from Madrid to Irún at the Atlantic coast, but this time it is France that maintains the firewall: no high-speed planned from Perpignan through Narbonne to Montpellier, nor from Bayonne to Bordeaux (and even from Tours to Bordeaux, the full line won't be ready for at least a decade).

  • France-Italy: waiting for the giant tunnel under the Alps. And no full high-speed planned on some sections before the tunnel on both sides.

  • Germany-Austria-Italy: a big tunnel planned there too, and a line doubling is already in construction in Austria, but no Bologna-Verona-Trento-Bolzano.

The lead that France has built and to date maintained in the race for modern rail transport

Well, both on level of technology and passengers carried, Japan may be justified to contest that claim, even without ever holding the speed record. And the lead ahead of Germany, Spain or Italy is not that big.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 04:32:58 AM EST
France-Spain: there will be high-speed line all the way from Sevilla to Perpignan/France, and also from Madrid to Irún at the Atlantic coast, but this time it is France that maintains the firewall: no high-speed planned from Perpignan through Narbonne to Montpellier, nor from Bayonne to Bordeaux (and even from Tours to Bordeaux, the full line won't be ready for at least a decade).

Is there a way for the EU, Spain and the respective Départements to get around this?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 04:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To promise higher EU subsidies, and that not only for border-corssing lines themselves? Two notes:

  1. The most ambitious Spanish-French project is a 40 km Trans-Pyrenées base tunnel, both for high-speed and freight. But this may be comfortably in the far future for decisionmakers to do much, and to do anything on access lines.

  2. For a really competitive Madrid-Paris train service, we'd need even higher top speeds, and (a) a fully built-out Irún/Bayonne corridor or (b) long new high-speed access lines to the Transpyrenées tunnel or (c) Perpignan-Monpellier and a new Paris-St. Etienne-(Valence), even more than for higher high-speed to have the capacity (Paris-Lyon is nearing saturation in rush-hour).


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:43:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have or can point to data on the PAris Lyon traffic and saturation ? I'm interested

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will look it up.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't found a direct path data, so had to look through the timeplans.  

The busiest section is Moisenay junction to Pasilly junction (e.g. the end of the Interconnexion to the branch-off towards Dijon). I looked up Monday and direction away from Paris (Gare de Lyon/Massy/CDG). Between 15:50 and 20:00, I counted 46 trains (may have missed some).

Minimum headway was 5 minutes on the old units with old signalling, it's now 3 minutes with the TVM 430. But scheduled times usually alternate between 4 and 6 min, only sometimes down to the 3 min minimum. Yet this is not being generous with time: you need some buffer for lateness, and if the previous train has one more stop, then the next non-stop train must leave a longer buffer for the first train to accelerate back.

So with view to this, between these 46 trains from 15:50 and 20:00, I found just six empty slots (had they been used by trains from Gare de Lyon: 16:14, 16:34, 16:40, 19:34, 19:50, 19:54). And those slots will certainly be filled up once the TGV Rhin-Rhône and the line to Turin are built. Pretty close to saturation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 07:01:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks a lot. That's certainly close to saturation...

However, how is TGV Rhin-Rhône supposed to feed that branch?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 at 04:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Despite the name, LGV Rhin-Rhône is an Y concept, with the three branches pointing to Mulhouse, Lyon -- and Paris, across Dijon.

Though, it is just the Ouest branch that'll be built last, and until then, Mulhouse will also get access from Paris via Strasbourg, so maybe there won't be much of a frequency increase via Dijon when the first leg opens (2011?).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 at 05:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first leg being the Est one, sorry. (For that one, construction already began.) Also, I see the LGV Rhin-Rhône now also has its own homepage.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 at 05:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The shortest Madrid-Paris route is through Irun, and I'm guessing doing Madrid-Zaragoza-Irun might be easier than a more direct route straigh north from Madrid because one can follow the Ebro river basin up from Zaragoza rather than having to cross the Central System running SW-NE.

Madrid-Zaragoza-Irun-Bordeaux-Tours-Paris is 1400 Km according to Google maps. That's 4 hours at 350 Km/h [though I'm not counting the stops]. It would blow all but low-cost flights out of the water, because of the time to get to/from the airports at either end, and the waiting times at check-in and baggage collection.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:56:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Drawing from this discussion, I suppose I should look at intermediate stops no less than 133Km apart (corresponding to 30 minutes). Madrid - Zaragoza - San Sebastian - Bordeaux - Tours -Paris could take 5h10m.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 07:51:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is of course not finding the shortest route, but the one optimising both for length and new major tunnels to build.

As things stand, Zaragoza to Pamplona will be a partial high-speed line, the rest in direction of San Sebastián less certain, while the main route towards Irún will be through the Guadarrama tunnel to Valladolid, across Burgos to Vitoria, then on the Basque Y ("Y Vasca") to Irún (altogether c. 530 km). Madrid to Irún will be c. 2h20m, the Paris to Bordeaux line (535 km), if all ready by 2016, is promised at 2h10m, a Bordeaux-Dax-border line (235 km) could be done in one hour, that would add up to 5h30m. But 350 km/h and non-stop, 1300 km, even 3h50m would seem possible.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying that the existing Guadarrama tunnel on the A6 highway would be used for the high-speed rail, while the series of tunnels on the A1 (most notably, Somosierra, but there are others) would not? Because going to Burgos via Valladolid is a sizeable detour.

Of course, politically, the Autonomous Community of Castilla-Leon would prefer to see Valladolid served first. I wouldn't be surprised if the connection between Burgos and the Basque Y takes a long while to be completed, especially if the PP is in the National government.

Valladolid would likely become a hub in any event, serving Madrid, Burgos-Vitoria, Galicia and Porto.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I meant the 28.419/28.408 m long Guadarrama tunnel (both tubes of which have been holed through in 2005), on the new Madrid-Valladolid high-speed line, which will be the world's 4th longest when the line opens at the end of this year...



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 11:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dodo beat me to it.
He is a professional writer...

I agree that such a triumphalism let me feel a bit uneasy.
Cooperation beetween Deutsche Bahn und SNCF is nihil, and it won't be better.

Problem is, Siemens choose the transrapid, and being in bed with the DB, they are now entrenched in a defensive position. And I believe the SNCF guy are not the most international experienced of the french economy too.

Just an example: You can't buy a special fare ticket of one country in the other. German Bahncard has agreement  with 26 countries in Europe, but not France. So, I should get out of the train in the first station after the border.

The TGV in Munich is just a Show, no improvement between Stuttgart an Munich.
I stop here, I'm just upset. I have sent a customer brief to the DBahn out of frustation amonths ago when I discovered the "fahrplan" won't change in any meaningful way to attract interstate traffic.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't thinking Le Monde was expressing triumphalism so much as they were pointing, with a hopeful disposition, in the direction towards a better and stronger Europe.

Doesn't mean it will happen, of course. And it will take stronger federal institutions, or maybe just forcing existing insitutions to do their job in the public interest (eg I can't believe that the competition commission isn't doing something about this, are they only good for ramming through neo-lib prescriptions on behalf of private industrial interest?)

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding DB-SNCF cooperation, it is improving, even if with babysteps. On the TGV Est Européenne, the former's ICE-3 sets will alternate with the latter's TGV POS sets, while dual-system freight locos pass the border for a year now.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dodo,

I have read that one of your compatriot is the project manager put in Charge by the commission for accelerating the corridor paris -Munich -Vienna -Budapest - ?

I hope he is good...

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 07:17:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read his name recently, but never heard of him before. Will try to check up on him.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 07:57:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, I found that Péter Balázs is an economist, who worked on EU integration and accession from the earliest stages. He is also a university professor and a career bureaucrat/diplomat who worked under both left and right governments. Was ambassador in Denmark, Germany, then at the EU, was member of the EU Convent (the body that prepared the Constitution under Delors). Then after working for some time under his predecessor Michel Barnier, he was briefly member of the Prodi Commission as commissioner for regional politics (strange that I forgot him).

Seems to be a good EU bureaucrat, even if probably marketista, what he isn't is either a railway expert or someone influential who could push national governments around.

What I could gather from press reports is that the EU's effect so far is constrained to countries promising at least no delays in already planned projects along the corridor. I mean, in practice -- the press conferences made these appear bold new initiatives.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 08:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the body that prepared the Constitution under Delors

Under Giscard, surely?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 08:29:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Merde!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 08:55:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The last in detail -- all the pre-existing plans/reality along the corridor:

  • Paris-Baudrecourt (beyond Metz): this is the LGV Est Européen first leg, to open 10 June
  • Baudrecourt-Strasbourg: TGV Est Européen second leg, originally due by 2010, then Chirac's various governments left it hanging in the air, presently it is said to come "by 2014 at the latest"
  • Strasbourg-Kehl-Appenweier: the crossing of the Rhine and the Franco-German border -- merely by upgrading for just 160(-Kehl)/200(Kehl-) km/h and double-tracking the existing railway was originally scheduled to open along with the TGV Est first leg, now 2010 or later
  • Appenweier-Karlsruhe: part of DB's long-planned and several times part-delayed four-tracking of the Rhine Valley route, partially built today, the high-speed tracks for 200-250 km/h
  • Karlsruhe-Stuttgart: this is a hole in the network, no straight line planned, trains go first North on a conventional line then Southeast on the existing Mannheim-Stuttgart high-speed line
  • Stuttgart-Ulm: expensive city-crossing tunnels and mountain-crossing high-speed line long planned, will it be built by 2015? Forget it
  • Ulm-Augsburg: upgrade to 200 km/h in progress, no high-speed planned
  • Augsburg-Munich: complete four-tracking with high-speed tracks' upgrade to 230 km/h in progress for years (ready by 2010), no high-speed planned
  • Munich-Salzburg: some 200 km/h at the beginning, the rest 160 km/h and only minor upgrades planned, except in Salzburg where three-tracking is in progress -- motivated by the local rapid transit, no EU policy
  • Salzburg-Wels (before Linz): minor upgrades for mostly 160 km/h, four-tracking or even the more sensible new high-speed parallel alignment was planned but then became a victim of budget cuts
  • Wels-Vienna: four-tracking with 200 km/h high-speed tracks, many sections already in operation, most of the rest already in construction &should be ready by 2014
  • Vienna-Bratislava: the only project along the corridor that received a boost recently, after Austrian railways ÖBB tried to please demand with another, cheap-o link between the two capitals; an upgrade to 160 km/h (presently 120 km/h or less)
  • Vienna-Budapest: mostly 160 km/h already today, mostly minor upgrades and track renewal planned, plus EU money may finance one city bypass in Hungary


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 08:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Suppposed express Amsterdam-Paris seems to often involve a stop in some scenic Belgian industrial slum where a transfer to a museum piece local is required and then a frantic rush to get onto the TGV in Bruxelles and a number of those 1.5meter Belgian grandmothers who seem to have elbows of some advanced machined metal. Must be the vast distances or the mountain terrain. Those Belgian/Dutch Alps are terrifying, monstrous cliffs that drop disorientatingly hundreds of centimeters, impassible ranges that seem to pierce the very clouds (which themselves float often meters above the earth).
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 01:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha! Yet another example of need for European infrastructure integration! We need a continental rail service department which builds and operates a European train network, run from Brussels. Obviously, an important sector like basic infrastructure for movement of people and goods cannot be efficiently and reliably provided by the private sector. National approaches are too small scale and cause problems with cross border transit. Thus the obvious need for a European level rail operator, providing fast and convenient links between major European metropolitan areas. With subsidies to ensure a favourable comparison with the pests that are low cost airlines, and taxes on air fuel...
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 05:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I never finished my map of the "natural" EU high-speed rail network in the vein of BruceMcF's diary.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:03:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly was I was going to say!

The European Rail Road Agency, railroading local communities from Porto to Tallinn!

Seriously, this should really be a federal issue.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 08:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why stop at Tallinn?

Seriously, this is exactly where I was going with this. And if I might be permitted to connect a few more dots, this is seriously a competitivity issue.

Anybody remember this from last week?

Now, remember that what Migeru says about what happened to regional carriers in France after the TGV roll-out is largely true, and it stands to reason that if one can get to Barca or Rome of Franfurt from Paris in 5 hours, this will put some more pressure on other carriers. And then, open skies agreement with US is clearly advantageous to the EU and EU carriers, and less so to US carriers.

The important thing is what lacordaire is alluding to, above. Which is clearly a case where competition, and I mean this in a larger sense, is not served by competing firms whose interests are simply expressed by the state entities (like db) to further the sorts of parochial interests that weaken Europe.

The answer is less market liberalisation, not more.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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