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The Irish enter into the contest for reactionary bullshit:

A 17-year-old girl who is four months pregnant and whose child cannot survive outside the womb has gone to the High Court to challenge a decision by the Health Service Executive to stop her leaving the State for an abortion.

The girl is in the care of the HSE and is challenging its decision to contact gardaí and not to let her travel for the abortion unless she presented as a suicide risk.

The girl, known only as Miss D, is from the Leinster area.

She found out a week ago that her baby has a condition called anencephaly, which means the baby's brain is not developing properly.

The condition means the child will live a very short time, if at all, after it is born.

After hearing this news, the girl made a decision to travel to the UK for a termination but the HSE asked gardaí not to permit her to leave the jurisdiction.

(RTÉ)

I rather imagine there will be political pressure to sort this out as quickly as possible, but if the HSE fear falling foul of the ban on abortion in some way that might not help. This isn't the discussion the governing political parties will want coming into the election.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 01:49:55 PM EST
That is appalling.  Absolutely appalling.

Which, if any, of the Irish political parties supports modifying and/or rescinding the ban?  Is the issue even on the table?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 01:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Off the top of my head, Labour and the Socialist Party. Not sure about the PDs. Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, the two main parties, would rather it all just went away as far as I know.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 02:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not really on the table at the moment, though this is the sort of thing that could put it there. The problem is getting enough people out to vote in favour of legalising abortion - it would need to be a referendum.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 02:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but the HSE asked gardaí not to permit her to leave the jurisdiction.
What does this mean, and how will it be enforced? Do they have her in custody? Could she sneak out?
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't get stuff like that in Poland. Refusing to permit (legal) abortions even when allowed by the very restrictive law, prosecutions for abortions (pretty much only when something goes badly wrong and the woman ends up either did or in the emergency room), but I've never heard of anybody being put into custody to prevent them from going abroad to get an abortion.
by MarekNYC on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's a minor under the care of the health authority, so legally she can't travel anywhere without their permission and they don't feel they can give permission for her to travel for an abortion without her being suicidal.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 1st, 2007 at 02:29:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland to Miss D: we'd rather restrain you and drive you to the brink of suicide than allow you to abort a brainless fetus.

I love the smell of family values in the morning.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 1st, 2007 at 05:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what happens when the anti-abortion church crowd decide that their last gasp of power will be inserting an ill-thought out abortion ban in the fucking Constitution. We've had some ludicrous number of referendums on details of the ban since and this smells like the start of a new one. You'd never get the ban inserted now, but we can't get rid of it either because that requires motivating people to come out and vote for abortion. It'll be another ten years before that can be done, I suspect.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 1st, 2007 at 05:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
She's not in custody:
The girl wants the court to allow her bring a legal action to prevent the HSE restraining her leaving the country for an abortion unless she presented as a suicide risk. Miss D says she was told by the HSE that it had contacted the gardaí to request that she not be permitted to leave the State and she wants the court to direct the HSE to advise the gardaí that it agrees to her travelling to the UK.
(Irish Times)

In practice, all she needs to do is get in a car, head across the border to the North and travel from there to the UK. I can't see that the cops could catch her. However, that's pretty fucked up and would involve someone else in what would be legally considered child abduction ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 1st, 2007 at 02:32:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland to Miss D: your baby will be born with no brain, but we'd rather you spent the next 5 months pregnant and went through labour than have an abortion. We can't let teenage sex go unpunished.

All hail Europe's Christian roots!

And this is nothing compared with what goes on in Malta.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 03:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have decided to use the wonderful phrase "And this is nothing compared with what goes on in Malta" as my new clincher for any argument. It carries such finality.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For instance:

The reverse-delete algorithm in graph theory used to obtain a minimum spanning tree from a given connected, edge-weighed graph. If the graph is disconnected, this algorithm will find a minimum spanning tree for each disconnected part of the graph. The set of these minimum spanning trees is called a minimum spanning forest, which consists of every vertex in the graph.

And this is nothing compared with what goes on in Malta

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or:

Mead also had an exceptionally close relationship with Ruth Benedict. Mead's daughter Catherine, in her memoir of her parents 'With a Daughter's Eye', implies that the relationship between Benedict and Mead may have contained an erotic element (see also Lapsley 1999). While Margaret Mead never identified herself as lesbian, the details of her relationship with Benedict have led others to identify her thus; in her writings she proposed that it is to be expected that individuals' sexual orientation may change throughout their lives.

And this is nothing compared with what goes on in Malta

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are beginning to see the rhetorical possibilties. There does indeed seem to be a 5th type of discourse interchange, and that is absurdity.

Absurdity is a refusal to accept logic. But it has a very strict rhetorical purpose: to cause the brain of the recipient to jump out of the stuck groove that they are in, in the hope of reframing the argument in favour of the sender.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And this is nothing compared to what goes on in Malta.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 06:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The use of addition in:
G -> H
G -> (H ^ J)
is called "improper" because the letter that is added is not added to the whole line.  It turns out, however, that even though the addition rule is not correctly applied, the inference is still valid.  Hence, this inference is not called "invalid," as the others are.  As for the last example, a DeMorgans Rule will be presented that will allow us to remove parentheses preceeded by negation signs.  But even after the parentheses have been removed, the inference remains valid.

And this is nothing compared to what goes on in Malta.


A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run

by ATinNM on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 08:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue May 1st, 2007 at 03:59:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Clearly, what goes on in Malta deserves further scrutiny, since it seems to produce things like this:

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stormy, I am not sure whether we should be having this light-hearted but deadly serious picnic in the middle of a discussion about abortion. But Malta certainly deserves our extended attention.

BTW Do you know how to make A Maltese Cross?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Criticize Malta's regressive abortion law?
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're way ahead of me. Smart with it.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 06:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm stealing it for my sig line!


A doo run-run-run, a doo run-run
by ATinNM on Tue May 1st, 2007 at 05:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the subject of abortions...I was told today about a 20 year old girl who has just discovered she is pregnant.  The person she told said she should probably have an abortion as she is too young to have a baby...
She said she wants to have the baby.
She went home ('down country') about a week ago to tell her parents...one parent told her there was no choice in the matter...she must have an abortion...no ifs or buts, end of story...and they have made an appointment with a UK clinic/hospital for their daughter to travel to the UK next weekend to have the abortion...no pre-counselling...
The other parent said they didn't care what she does.
She will meet the parish priest before she heads to the UK.
Since she returned to Dublin from 'home' she has made an appointment to see counsellors...perhaps she will get advice that will help her make her own decision.
I feel very sorry for that girl...I don't know who she is and I have no idea what being pregnant is like...but I do know that if she goes ahead with the abortion without talking to someone who has answers to all her unanswered questions this decision will come back to haunt her.  It needs to be HER decision what happens...not her parents...or colleagues...or the local parish priest.
I felt sickened when I heard about all the 'advice' she has been given.
...and then I came up here (sorry...I'm in the attic) and read this thread.

Ireland...the land that time forgot...


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde

by Sam on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh...and the bit I forgot...21 years ago her parents were supposedly 'forced' to get married when her mother discovered she herself was pregnant.  They have since split up.  This is where the 'orders' are coming from...
Thou shalt not do what we did...thy life will be the same as ours...

<AAAGGGHHH!!!>

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde

by Sam on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 05:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thou shalt not do what we did...thy life will be the same as ours...

Don't get me wrong I don't think parents or anybody else should decide for her but this phrase is true. She needs to decide and take responsibilities about child for ever and not call for her parents or anybody else to help once she gat tired of being a mum. It's even more hopeless when future mum is a manor...
 I keep telling my children not to do what we did OR if they do they MUST expect to have life very similar to ours (parents). Somehow they (children generally) keep doing same things as their parents and they stupidly expect different outcome. I am not psychologist but it's a common thing that children step in to the same "footprints" like their parents even if they know how hurt they were.
And one thing is for sure (no matter how bad they may be) parents (usually) love their children and do not want them to make same mistake and suffer same way but the whole thing is hopeless...children tend to experience everything personally...
And having a child is FOR LIFE. Most of the young people do not understand this...when life comes to bit them they would rather run from responsibility. I am appalled how many children here were raised in foster homes.
Ah this children - parents story is a long story...
About abortion generally we in communist countries were free to have them in hospitals for very little money. If minor,  girl needed a consent of parents. I don't think that girl could be forced by parents to do it, on the other hand. Largely it was a contraceptive at the time cause not many woman (especially not educated) were using pills and condom was not so popular pre- HIV-AIDS.
Now when I think about it it wasn't right too. I think I am for some kind of "middle solution"...and yes sexual education FIRST and most important...
by vbo on Mon Apr 30th, 2007 at 11:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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