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There is no demonstrable purpose for the line that can possibly justify the cost.

Maybe then planned costs are too high. I think London would sorely need through connections on rail and an express-metro-like service to relieve the Tube, e.g. just what the RER is in Paris (and the S-Bahn in Berlin or Vienna); and what the Crossrail 1, 2, the East London Line and Thameslink2000 were supposed to integrate into.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 06:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't think that it is possible to deliver service improvments in London for the simple reason that demand is so high that sufficient provision is economically unrealistic.

We need to move employment out of London and thus shift the demand. It's somewhat like the need to provide alternative energy souces in the face of peak oil; the biggest single factor that would make a difference is reducing demand. Right now that is taking place, but it's a generational shift as London increasingly becomes unbearable for those on even reasonable income.

Once teachers, nurses, firemen, rubbish collectors, waiters, bar workers are priced out of the south east (which is happening) then other parts of Britain become more attractive employment centres. But that will happen too slowly and government should take a lead in changing the financial environment to encourage business to leave london. Instead they abdicate responsibility, and wait for the whole thing to fall in on some successive government's head.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 07:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
demand is so high that sufficient provision is economically unrealistic

London is not bigger and less employment-centralised than Paris. But I agree that moving employment out might be a sensible goal.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 09:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd dispute this. Although the nominal populations for the two cities is about the same, the fact is that london is surrounded by an extremely densely populated commuter zone about 120 miles wide and the effective population of this extended area is about 25 million. Most of whom derive their principal income from within the Circle line.

 Paris has nothing like such a zone and os the pressure on its central services is noticeably less.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 09:26:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Paris city "core" has 2 millions inhabitants and is three times denser than the inner London, I guess that's part of why there's less stress on central transport.

The whole area around Paris is about 11 millions people.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglom%C3%A9ration_parisienne

I read paper that said that lots of workers went from one place outside Paris to work outside Paris too while the central system was designed to bring people to Paris though.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 10:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have a source for the 25 million number? The Wiki article on the London commuter belt says 13,945,000, while its source says all of Southeast England is 18,387,000 people. For Paris, the comparable number is 11,100,523 (for Île-de-France in 2001).

At any rate, the Paris mass transit system carries much more passengers than London's. In 2005, London had 971 million Tube, 53 million DLR and 503 million rail passengers. In the same year, Paris had 1,372.7 million Métro passengers, 444.5 million RER passengers on the part of the network run by Paris transport authority RATP, and a further 633 million on the rest or RER and suburban lines run by Transilien, SNCF's Île-de-France rapid transit branch.

I note the central element of the RER network are three long tunnels across the city.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 11:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...on the other hand, buses are 1816 million in London vs. c. 991,4 million for RATP in Paris. I'm not sure these figures are that comparable, though.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 11:16:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RATP is not the only bus carrier in the Paris metro area. It only handles bus in Paris itself and the inner suburbs, whereas there are other carriers for the outer suburbs. It probably doesn't make up for a billion trips, though.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 04:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspect Transport of London isn't the only bus carrier in the London commuter area, either, though it may operate on a larger part of this territory than the part of I-de-F RATP operates in.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 at 05:20:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think she's speaking of the London economic region, in general, which would include parts of the East, South and perhaps a bit of the Midlands.  I could be wrong, but I've read the 25m figure before.  It's the joy of drawing lines to decide whether an area falls into "Greater London" or "Greater New York" or whatever other city you like.  I suppose "Greater Miami" is in the tens of millions if we draw the line out to Charleston.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 11:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the most relevant for the issue debated is just the commuter area. We could include ever wider regions around Paris, too. (Especially now that some people commute on the TGV from as far away as Marseille...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 01:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think 120 miles is pushing it a bit.  That's essentially St Pancras to Nottingham, and there's really just Luton, Leicester, and a lot of farmland in between, once you clear the M25.  And, heading in a straight line, that brings you almost to Manchester from Camden.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 11:37:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, there is a difference between diameter and radius :-)))

That's Brighton to Milton Keynes, Basinstoke to Colchester, Canterbury to Oxford

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 01:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I lived in Bath - about two hours from London by train - I knew people who did a daily commute to London.

The London catchment area is bogglingly huge. People commute from all kinds of insane places, usually because of property prices.

Someone else I know commutes from Newcastle to Reading for the week - around 300 miles - and then back again at weekends. By car.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 05:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Paris has a pretty large commute area too, if we're talking about extreme cases. Every town less than one hour away by TGV has some commuters ; I've known a colleague coming from Arras, heard of Rouen, and I'm ready to bet there exist a few Lyon Paris commuters... Although the cost becomes very high (TGV ain't that cheap).

Also, there is a new phenomenon of tax evaders who have residency in Belgium, while working in Paris.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 06:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm certain I have read of businessmen who even do Marseille-Paris commuting, but don't remember where. WIll try to search.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 at 05:21:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here they say Paris has 45,000 daily TGV commuters.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 at 05:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know people who commute from Swansea daily to London, And at the local station for my Father, it is impossible to get a seat on the train before nine in the morning, as they are packed with people commuting from Nottingham and Derby.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 11th, 2007 at 06:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's got to become a sensible goal, because too many people -- as Helen noted, in critical areas like schools, fire stations, etc -- are being priced out.  My read of it is that a person needs to bring in roughly £15-20k, after income taxes, to live a fairly comfortable -- defined here as having plenty of money to afford basic necessities (a flat or, more likely, flatshare; food; utilities; council tax; etc) and a little bit of spending cash -- young person's kind of life in London, based on the lowest rents I've found being about £400/month (give or take a few tens per week) inside the M25 and using the old 25% of Income rule.  Problem: £20k is a lot of money.  It's roughly the median for a given person in one of the developed countries.  You're, of course, more likely to earn more than that in a major city like London, but probably not that much more.

I, honestly, don't follow the reasoning behind businesses not having moved already.  Most of the recruits from universities are going to be well outside of London.  The rents are going to be cheaper.  The wages paid are going to be lower, given the difference in the cost of living, alone.  It doesn't make sense, economically, to feed everything into it, the City be damned.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 10:57:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting as there has been pressure on London housing for a long time. It's worth remembering that it's only 30 years or so that London has been such a sole focus of the UK economy. These "market-led" changes generally take on the order of a lifetime to actually occur, so businesses will start moving out in another 20 years or so, in time for my 50th birthday...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 01:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Keeping employment concentrated makes mass transit commuting possible. If you want to encourage mass transit over cars then you need to discourage the development of offices outside city centers.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 03:05:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Either that or build a comprehensive netowrk of orbital/spiral trams.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 10th, 2007 at 03:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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