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I cannot see any problems with NATO forces being deployed in helping oil companies in a crisis.  The Aljazeera article states accurately that in most cases oil companies have their own security arrangements that are sufficient, but at some occasions they might need, for the most part good intelligence, during a crisis and that is where NATO can help.  

The aim most be to resolve conflicts and make sure people working in troubled areas are safe, like for instance in Nigeria.  The NRF force are a NATO force and are in under the command of the joint member states and it is not meant to be a force for hire at random will, which is quite obvious when you look at the NATO charter and the NRF mandate.  Still, if you are a NATO sceptic, no amount of evidence and reassurances in the world will make you change your mind, I guess.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 11:33:05 AM EST
There used to be no problem in deploying troops to help out United Fruit in a crisis, so why should there be a problem helping Shell in Nigeria?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 11:43:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you choose to look at it from that angle of course then I can see the problem.  I, for one, do not share your scepticism of NATO and do not see these forces being used in such a way.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 11:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the whole NATO issue is a matter of framing and there can't be a rational debate on it?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 11:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have not said that.  Debates are always good, but in most cases people have their minds set before the debates and thus do not enter into them with an open mind and that is why I see most debates as a venting and sharpening of established opinions/arguments more than a probing of ideas/scenarios.  That is what I am saying.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 12:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I am saying is that ET's ongoing "debate" on NATO sounds a lot like the nuclear energy debate, and in fact all I can get from Atlanticists is huffing and puffing, accusations of prejudice, and suggestions that no amount of evidence or resoning can change anyone's mind about NATO.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 12:09:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, huffing and puffing might be the right words if you by that mean a given impression of only criticism and not new ideas.  I have had many debates on NATO and when you for the most part see criticism and the added argument that NATO is outdated and not useful any more it should come as no surprise that NATO supporters see a pattern.  These arguments have been around ever since NATO was founded back in 1949 and are for the most part used by NATO sceptics.  In my opinion NATO is still highly relevant, but its challenges are of another nature today than it was some 20 years ago.  That is why the organization is downsizing its forces and are focusing on speed and mobility when restructuring, abandoning the large mobilized force structure from the Cold War period.      

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 12:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, when I was 11 years old and Felipe Gonzales pulled off his NATO referendum hat trick, I thought the NATO sceptics were quaint, and that impression lasted for a few more years, up to the first gulf war. But I grew up, saw things for myself, and decided Atlanticism is not in the interest of Europe. Apparently one is not allowed to criticise what there is without proposing a fully worked out alternative.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 12:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently I haven't grown up yet and can not form an opinion of my own, what a shame, but maybe things will change for the better in the future. :)

The best thing would of course to present alternatives when criticizing something, but that is my opinion.  I have to add that that is not always easy and that I am no better than anyone else one that department.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 12:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, sorry for taking your comment personally. I read it again and I shouldn't have.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 12:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to apologize and no, my previous comment was not meant to be of a personal nature.  Personal comments are never rational comments and thus have nothing to do in serious debates.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 01:02:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is NATO in the EU's interest? That's the question I can't get answered.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 02:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO might not be in the EU's interest as such, but it is certainly in the interest of the member states.  It is an organization that has provided security for its member states for almost 60 years and is an efficient defense organization to rely on in the future.  With the development of a multi polar world the need for security are as great as it was during the Cold War only different.  

In addition to function as a credible defense organization in is also functioning as a forum for discussion between former foes taken more seriously than other international organizations.  NATO funnel security issues within a forum that has evolved for more than fifty years an expertise that is highly relevant even today.  For those of us that are interested in good relations with the US it provides bridges across the Atlantic and thus a viable forum for resolving security disputes within a friendly framework.  

With the development of the ESDP, the successor of the ESDI under NATO, the EU can benefit from the established infrastructure and force structure of the old defense organization given the fact that the EDI is still in its infancy.  This is also the plan agreed upon by the EU and NATO concerning the NRF, which are meant to be used in NATO-led, EU-led and UN-led operations.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 03:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be much happier if the EU developed its European Defence Agency.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 04:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, some day I imagine it will.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 06:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US can't allow that to happen: it would lose the control it exerts over EU foreign policy via NATO.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 06:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the US has no say in the matter when it comes down to real policy matters in the EU.  The EU ought to listen to US concerns of course, but when it comes down to internal EU matters it is in the end the EU countries that decide.  

Much of the reason why the EU haven't got a security policy and regime on their own has to do with disagreements within the EU member states.  The US has actually spoken positively of a stronger defense presences by the EU.  The disagreement is over how NATO are to fit into that equation and the insistence of US control over certain aspects within the Defense organization, some of it quite reasonable since the US are by fare the greatest contributer, of all the member states, to the organization both money wise and equipment wise.  

If the EU countries can resolve their differences then I am quite sure that the ESDP will develop much quicker and NATO will function more like a defense and security forum with the infrastructure ready to function as a military defense organization if need be.  This will guarantee a close relationship to the US and at the same time give EU its own military capability.  The NATO structure will evolve from essentially a one pillar system, the US, into a two pillar system consisting of Europe and the US as equal partners.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 07:26:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US accepts no equal partners.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 16th, 2007 at 03:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to be on rysskräck to understand.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 05:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 05:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah in Norwegian we call it russerfrykt. ;)

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 06:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just remembered that Norway, like Poland, shares a border with Russia. That explains a lot.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 06:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It might do, but historically Norway have had excellent relations with Russia ever since the time of the Viking ages.  It was quite some concern over the expansionist policies of the Soviet Union just after 1945, with the communist takeover in many of the Eastern European countries, especially Czechoslovakia in 1948, and the forced agreement on Finland just after the war.  Norway got a similar offer from the Soviet Union, but declined.  This offer plus still having the German attack in 1940 in the back of their minds, made the Norwegian government turn to NATO for protection.  Norway had no national defense at the time only a well organized resistance movement to fall back on.  

That said the Norwegian government at the time led by the Norwegian Labour party, a party, at least the majority of the party, that had been a supporter of the Russian revolution and a onetime member of Comintern back in the 1920s, was led by people that wanted to have a good but cautious relationship to their big neighbor in the east.  That is why the government put restrictions on NATO activity in the most northern parts of the country.  That didn't include intelligence activity of course, but then again the Russians were hard at work in that department too.  

I guess what I am saying is that the fear of Russia in Norway was not as great during the Cold War as in many other countries in Europe, primarily in Eastern Europe, and keeping a good relationship to Russia was high up on the security agenda for all parties irregardless of political color.  It was part of the stabilizing policy in the North, which simply stated meant, to the east: Finland was leaning towards the Soviet sphere of influence, in the middle/the buffer zone? Sweden was neutral, at least officially, and to the west: Denmark, Island and Norway were members of NATO and part of the Western sphere of influence.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 07:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, now I have two choices: "you're on rysskräck" and "would you like russerfrykt with that?".

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 16th, 2007 at 04:54:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He, he.....life is full of choices.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed May 16th, 2007 at 09:20:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what are the procedures for the use of NATO forces to help oil companies - in other countries?

Should a UN mandate be needed? Which countries can see the intervention of NATO troops without a UN mandate? Is there a troop size trigger? Who decides? Which NATO members' forces participate?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 01:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as you know the procedures for the use of NATO forces to help companies are under development and are not yet decided upon, but the concept of helping companies from NATO countries in a crisis is not a new one.  This has been part of a national defence strategy for many years.  Since NATO has adapted an out-of-area concept it has to be ready to protect member states and subsidiaries, including some national companies, in extreme circumstances.  This has to be done of course in collusion with the government of the state in question and only if the country in question is unable to provide security on its own.  The Rapid Reaction forces are not forces meant to be in an area fighting a prolonged war but meant to be used in case of an emergency.  

The decision to deploy such a force are to be taken by the member states and that usually means under a UN mandate even though NATO is a stand alone organisational, that has always been the strength of the organization, but most NATO operations have usually been based on a UN mandate, with the exception of the Kosovo operation.  The participants in the NRF and thus such an operation are to be drawn from the member states on a rotational basis, decided upon in the Prague meeting in 2002.  

Most of the procedures for such a rapid reaction forces have yet to be decided upon are still on the drawing board, but this kind of operation has to be decided by the NATO member states and will, I imagine, be of a more protective nature like escorting tankers through troubled waters.  Still, in some cases it could mean rescuing hostages or intervene in a situation where big installations, including oil and gas installations, are under attack from terrorist or guerrilla forces.

Here are some NATO links 1. 2. and 3.  that might shade some light on the mission and purpose  of these RR Forces.  The details are yet to be hammered out.      

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 02:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to add, this is of course a result of what has evolved into what has been called a wider security concept.  The old national security concept usually meant a military threat to national sovereignty or an armed threat against vital national installations.  Today the concept of security has been widened and includes, amongst other things, the supply of energy and planning and preparing for a national or an international crisis like a natural disaster.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue May 15th, 2007 at 03:18:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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