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Since there seems to be a lot of educated people here on this blog, let's organize a debate about the future.  You find someone who has a traditional Left / Marxist / Socialist worldview, and I will act as closely as possible like a 19th-20th century Minnesota Populist.  Since Populists taught that every example used in organizing should be something anyone could confirm by looking out a window, I will insist that I can use modern examples.  Otherwise, I will attempt to be a completely authentic Populist.

I predict that even with the "handicap" of 100 year-old political theory, my historical Populism will better explain current political / economic / environmental / technological reality and offer more constructive ways of addressing our civilization ending problems than any other form of leftist / progressive thought.

Any takers?

And when this is done, will folks PLEASE stop using the word "populism" as slander?


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 04:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But 'populism' in Europe (as well as South America) is widely used as sociology and political science terminus technicus, it has a parallel history to the US movement in Russia, and it was used by some increasingly right-wing movements, including the current Spanish major right-wing party PP, Mussolini's fascists, and both the precursors of the German Nazis and the Nazis themselves. You have to accept that a word can gain different connotations in different regions, and sometimes there is no primary one. (As mentioned upthread, 'liberal' is another such word.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 05:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said elsewhere in this thread, the Spanish PP has infected the European right wing, who now call themselves the "European People's Party".

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 06:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No it wasn't just them: for example the Austrian conservative party is named the same (Österreichische Volkspartei).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 06:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since when? The PP has existed since 1976, first as Alianza Popular and then as Coalición Popular.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 06:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since the Second Republic. 1945. (See Wiki page.) "Volkspartei" or variants was in common use in Germanic-language territories.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 06:50:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Example from Luxemburg, Weimar-era German example, South Tyrol example, the older Danish Folkeparti, a Norwegian Folkeparti.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 06:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But 'populism' in Europe (as well as South America) is widely used as sociology and political science terminus technicus

If this is true, and I assume it is, then it shows how intellectually lazy and dishonest the social sciences have become.

After all, "populist" is a real name that folks from a real political movement with written and stated objectives called themselves.  This word has a real meaning.  For some narrow-minded academic to casually label things he finds objectionable as "populist" is not only slander, it is historically ignorant.

IMHO, what REALLY bugs the traditional doctrinaire European Left is that the economists who subscribed to American Populist teachings were able to successfully operate an economy while the Marxists never could.  And then they have the NERVE to inform US that because we are insufficiently theoretical, our political and economic success will be used to label the knuckle draggers of the earth.


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Tue May 22nd, 2007 at 11:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If this is true, and I assume it is, then it shows how intellectually lazy and dishonest the social sciences have become.

No. It shows that the meaning of words can develop in different directions. You falsely assume that sociologists and political scientists using these terms were fixated on US Populists (most probably didn't even heard of it; I didn't until a half year ago) or that most were Marxists.

After all, "populist" is a real name that folks from a real political movement with written and stated objectives called themselves.

Yes. But on one hand, as pointed out at several places upthread, its use wasn't constrained to US Populists. On the other hand, just as with 'Democrat', 'Republican', and 'Conservative', political movements using a self-descriptor don't hold a copyright on its use and meaning.

I should further add that what is commonly called 'communism' (Bolshevik or Bolshevik-inspired communism, especially Stalinist versions) differs greatly from what Marx & co envisioned. Ideas and interpretations develop even when people do use a term for themselves.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed May 23rd, 2007 at 05:04:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Find me ONE historical use of the word Populism before the 1892 Omaha convention of the People's Party, and I MIGHT believe your point has ANY validity.

Populism is OUR word and WE get to define what it means.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Thu May 24th, 2007 at 06:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the descendants of the pre-Colombian Aztec civilization of Mexico get to define what is and is not "chocolate," right?  Because the word came from the Nahuatl language.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu May 24th, 2007 at 06:51:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or what about coach? Should I demand that people stop calling buses or sports team managers or training instruction 'coach'?

Or what about demagogue, originating in the Greek 'demagos' = popular leader?

Or Jacobin, originally used for Dominican monks?

Or should the 1930s French literary movement populisme be erased from history books?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 26th, 2007 at 01:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In English it appears to have originated there, yes
populist 1892, Amer.Eng., from L. populus "people." Originally in reference to the Populist Party, organized Feb. 1892 to promote certain issues important to farmers and workers. The term outlasted the party, and by 1920s came to mean "representing the views of the masses" in a general way.
Now, how about Italian populismo? They took it from the Russian Narodniki before 1892 as has been discussed elsewhere on this thread. How about the factio popularium during the late Roman Republic? That's as close as it gets to a translation of "People's Party".

You get to call yourself whatever you want, but you don't get to decide what "populism" means when other people say it. Also, words do have more than one meaning, and words of different origins can end up adopting the same form.

You seem to have embarked on your crusade already, so good luck.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2007 at 06:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I made a little research into the sociological/political science use of the term 'populism'.

'Populism' has been in use by researchers before WWII. It was then applied to the völkisch movements in German and adjacent areas. However, it appears post-WWII uses aren't too closely linked.

It appears from my sources that after WWII, 'populism' became an oft-used term and subject of research after a 1967 symposium at the London School of Economics (which used to harbour many of the ideological fathers of neoliberalism) titled 'Populism'. From what I found, that symposium focused on the unexpected development of politics in decolonised states, where the expectation was the rise of socialism, but what resulted instead was termed 'populism'. The symposium led to the influential 1969 book Populism. Its Meanings and National Characteristics, edited by Ghita Ionescu and Ernest Gellner.

However, the notion didn't stay with the (neo)liberals. It was caught up by the Neocons in the Vietnam era, the neo-Marxists in the late seventies, and the mainstream sociologists close to the German Social Democrats in the eighties, and then spread in the entire field. Much-quoted works are Populism by Margaret Canovan from 1981 and Populismus und Aufklärung (=Populism and Enlightement) by Helmut Dubiel from 1986.

By this time, at least four basic views of populism have formed -- following Susanne Falkenberg:

  1. descriptive-phenomenological, which assumes populism as a given (e.g. describes it when it is self-applied or applied on others),
  2. the social-psychological, which analyses a general underlying attitude that reacts to social developments or the alienation of elites,
  3. mono-functional, which sees populism as a power instrument, of politicians or classes or ethnic groups,
  4. bi-functional, which classifies left- and right-populism or populism from below and populism from above.

In most cases, the US Midwest Populists and the Russian Narodniks and the Germanic völkisch movements are viewed as special cases of a general trend.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed May 23rd, 2007 at 06:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But of course, a political movement should ALWAYS be defined by its enemies.

/snark

I also notice that no one dares to debate me.  They would much rather use the bullshit definitions of ninth-rate intellectuals than risk debating a real Populist.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Thu May 24th, 2007 at 06:18:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is there to debate? The American Populists of around 1900 are a fact. It is also a fact that many other movements have called themselves populist, and that many people have called some movements or politicians populists. You can bitch and moan all you like about intellectuals but that doesn't change the facts about the usage of the word "populist".

If you want to embark on a crusade to rename everything that you don't consider "properly populist", go ahead. It would be as pointless as trying to convince American wikipedians that "Libertarian Socialism" is not an oxymoron and existed for about 100 years before Ayn Rand created Political Philosophy.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 24th, 2007 at 06:27:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a political movement should ALWAYS be defined by its enemies

Huh!? So everyone is your enemy? And what about other political movements that named themselves populist? (And can you distinguish between lowercase populist and uppercase Populist?)

no one dares to debate me.

Your debate offer was like a loaded question: you assume an obsession with MidWest Populism among people who don't even know much about it, you defined your to-be oppenents for themselves, and in a tone that makes one expectant of not reasoned arguments but trades of insults, especially given that you haven't defined how the result of the debate will be evaluated. But if you want a real debate, on Populism vs. any or all kinds of socialistic ideology on the future, start a diary and I (and surely others) will look into it.

bullshit definitions of ninth-rate intellectuals

Well, anti-intellectualism is a unifying trait of all things called populism, but you have to stop issuing blanket insults against people and scholars you don't know if you want reasoned debate in that debate diary.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 26th, 2007 at 12:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You keep talking about Populist-with-a-capital-P referring to the US political movement, while other folks here are trying to talk about populist-with-a-lower-case-p, which is understood to mean something very different outside of the US.  Just because a US political movement called itself that doesn't mean it gets to own the word.

Unless you would suggest that nobody use the word "democratic" or "republican" to refer to anything other than the US Democratic and Republican parties, in which case I think some folks in Ancient Greece and Medieval Russia might have something to say about it.

Today, the term "Republican" means two very different things in the USA and Ireland, and neither of them is "invalid."

I understand that you feel strongly about the term "populist," but you need to understand that your understanding of the term, whatever the historical context, is not the only one that matters.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu May 24th, 2007 at 06:45:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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