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Would you have an idea where I could find information on what kind of asbestos it was?

As I may have professed before, drilling through the Alps is like a geological wet dream. Was I offered to aid with it, I would jump at it like a shot. The geological mapping information that can come out of those sections may solve long-standing issues on how the Alps formed. (Asbestos is likely to indicate metamorphosed plutonic bodies or massive shear zones.)

To more interesting stuff... The story on the Betuwelijn is as long as it is frustrating, and the Antwerp-Amsterdam line is much similar. I got a very nice overview article (in Dutch) on it yesterday. I think it's a diary in itself... Apparently October 2008 is the most positive scenario and 2009 is much more likely. Hopefully once it will be operating the Dutch may finally "get" the use of HSL...

by Nomad on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 04:43:15 AM EST
DutchNews.nl
Auditor slams high speed train project

20-06-2007

The transport ministry has been heavily criticised in an audit office report into its management of the high-speed rail link (HSL) to Brussels.

The first trains should have been using the railway this spring, but transport minister Camiel Eurlings told MPs a month ago it would be September before he could say when the HSL would finally open.

The audit office blamed the lack of control over the project, the complicated tendering process and the fact that safety problems had been underestimated.

It said there were fears that the trains themselves would be delivered too late. It also predicted fewer passengers would use the HSL than the operating company - a joint venture between Dutch Rail (NS) and airline KLM - predicts.

Last weekend, the Netherlands' other major rail project - the Betuwe freight-only railway from Rotterdam to the German border - opened well behind schedule and heavily over budget.

I don't know who did the audit...

by Nomad on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 05:48:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About the asbestos trouble, I can give the following details:

The layer containing it was Aktinolith, the TBM in the West bore (which started from the Southwest exit at Steg) hit on it at the beginning of April 2002 (works ceased April 5-13), five months before finishing thus c. 7-7.5 km into the mountain, and here (pdf!) you find the geologic profile -- the asbestos layer must be in that pink zone under the "Lötschental".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is the same profile as in the pdf but with explanations. The pink zone is 'ancient cristallised gneiss and shale'. Here is a picture of an Apophyllit crystal that is supposed to be inset with Aktinolith:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:43:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgot the link!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Makes a lot of sense to me now - If my memory serves me right, that is part of the core complex of the Alps, heavily metamorphosed, altered and intruded with igneous bodies. (Thanks for the legend too.)

The mineral in question is in your picture: actinolite (the greenish mineral at the base) - an amphibole which indeed has asbestos qualities. They probably did good to protest and shut operations down...

Shale is BTW probably not the right word, especially not in juxtaposition with gneiss. Shale is the description for a sedimentary rock, gneiss for metamorphosed rock. Highly unlikely to find the two side by side in the very core of the Alps!

by Nomad on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the English spelling versions of the mineral names.

AFAIK, shale is the exact word for Schiefer, but the way I read it, it is meant to be metamorphosed, too. Since then, I found another article in German (pdf!) that confirms the composition of the surrounding stone as a mixture of metamorphosed gneiss and shale:

Beim Lötschherg-Basistunnel wurde das natürliche Mineral Aktinolith angetroffen, und zwar in alpinen Klüften kalkamphibolführender Gesteine (Amphibolite, Hornblendefels, kristaline Schiefer und schiefrige bis massige amphilolführenden Gneise).


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:32:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Already this year I discovered that geological terms in French have at times complete different, sometimes opposite(!) definitions than the ones in English. I don't want the same happening in German!!! There is a reason for the existence of the IUGS.

If with Schiefer a metamorphosed rock is meant, it can't be translated with the English shale. Period.

In your next blockquote they talk about "kristaline Schiefer" - I could interpret that as metamorphosed shale. There is no German word for slate? And what a Hornblendefels exactly is, I can't say either. Hornblende I know, hornfels ditto.

Argh.

(And now for the ultimate PN points: Metamorphosed gneiss is a pleonasm. Gneiss suffices.)

by Nomad on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:53:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm, leo gives three words for Schiefer: schist, shale and slate

hmm: metamorphis

interesting as wellall the things I didn't know about Schiefer (in english)

by PeWi on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was afraid that schist would be in there too... I can do now 2 things.

1) Give a lengthy and unnecessary diatribe concerning the differences and meta-wars being fought over these terms (and apparently in different languages as well).

or

2) Congratulate you all with your more than brilliant sleuthing in geological terms and have a beer now.

PeWi, I didn't know about the schist soils... I'll dig into that later.

For now, I'll opt for option 2. G'night!!

by Nomad on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I neither do I, but I am sitting in spitting distance of some geologists, and could ask them, if needed be.
by PeWi on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Choose 1! Just opened a diary on such language differences.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 01:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PN PN PN!

I find in German, Hornblende is the mineral (equivalent to Amphibole), and Hornblendefels is rock consisting of that mineral only.

I also find that slate shale are both translate to Schiefer. The German Wiki even mentions the language difference:

Im Englischen wird zwischen dem unstrukturierten Sedimentgestein (shale) und dem metamorphen Produkt (slate) unterschieden; letzteres ist der Schiefer im engeren Sinne.

About methamorposed and gneiss, the 'methamorphosed' applies both to Gneis and Schiefer in that sentence, so it's not redundant.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:14:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Before you kick my head, Hornblende is not equivalent to aphibole but only the dark variants.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got a very nice overview article (in Dutch) on it yesterday. I think it's a diary in itself...

I would be grateful for a translation... or, at least, could you tell me if there are other big delaying factors for high-speed operation (or operation at all) beyond the damned ETCS/ERTMS Level 2? That letter soup designates a partially wireless train control, signalling and safety system that just can't be brought into an operational state, despite separate attempts by multiple companies on multiple new projects over the last six years.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:39:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm behind the news. Just found that on the Mattstetten-Rothrist line in Switzerland, which was originally supposed to open in 2004 with ETCS Lev 2 but then went into service with conventional signalling, trains are run by ETCS only since March. That's significant progress, a line with 240 trains/day truly tests capacity and reliability. But, still only with 160 km/h, raise to 200 promised for December...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:55:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This coming Saturday, I'll be gone on a fieldtrip. Trying to get everything tied up here, pretty hectic.
by Nomad on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:55:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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