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I'm not convinced - yet - by urban agriculture.

In medieval times in England the standard unit required to - barely - feed four households on a farm was called a Hide, and it's roughly 120 acres.

Assuming we're much smarter now - hmmmm - we can perhaps get the grain requirements of a family down into an area of maybe five acres instead of thirty. (That's possibly optimistic. Modern farming returns grain yields of 20:1 but is very intensive, and also allows fields to lie fallow every few years, which is only possible if agriculture is collective.)

Five acres is roughly two and a half football pitches, which is a little bigger than most people's yards.

The permaculture people claim you can live off a much smaller space than this. And if you build some greenhouses to concentrate energy and keep bad weather out you can - perhaps. But you won't be able to do it by growing cereals, which are possibly the most energy intensive of all vegetable crops.

And other crops really aren't all that calorific. If you want to eat a minimum of 1500 calories a day, you need very, very big plates of vegetables, or - ideally - some other source of carbs.

So realistically the most you can expect from urban agriculture is a bit of fill-in, and perhaps some barter. It will certainly help, but mainstream agriculture really does need to be collective and large-scale for maximum social and economic value.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 at 06:10:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Missing topic here is fish.
by Laurent GUERBY on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:58:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, fish is going to be missing soon.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 04:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure where fish comes in when talking about grain production and over-population ...  :-p ...

but ...

The short answer is: world fish stocks have either gone or are going bye-bye (technical phrase) and the answer is Stop.  Stop fishing until they recover; IF they CAN recover - in the Canadian experience they won't.  

It is possible the Cod have moved north into the Davis Strait as a result of increased sea temperatures off the Canadian coast.  Reflecting the northward movement occurring in the lobster grounds off the coast of the state of Maine.  I'd have to do some research to see if anyone has even looked up there for 'em. (The cod, not the lobster.)

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 01:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Faarmed fish get fed grain, and people get fed fish?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 01:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless there has been a dramatic change in fish farming in the last 4 years ... (CYA!  CYA!)

Usually farmed fish are fed (so called) "trash fish."  The amount of grains fed to fish is insignificant.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 02:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mad fish disease?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 02:59:15 PM EST
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Since you ran away from the US - you coward - you don't know the Absurd Hysteria of the Moment© in the US press is widespread reports of attacks by small furry animals, with rabies, on small children.  

Attacks by Disease Maddened Fish is only a newscycle away.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:25:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nine times over the past seven weeks, the Asian transplant that can breathe air and scoot slowly over land has been caught in a 14-mile stretch of the Potomac or its tributaries.

...

Already, there is a snakehead fishing tournament scheduled for July, and Bass Pro Shops Outdoor World at Arundel Mills in Hanover plans to offer a bounty on northern snakeheads -- $10 to $50 gift certificates, depending on the length of the fish.

This is crazy. The rate of capture is one every 5 days and they are already organising a tournament?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That article is three years old.  There was a serious manhunt... or, um, fishhunt, for them when they were first found.  At the time, the hope was that the fish was in its first generation and could be eradicated before it really took hold.  That hope has long since passed....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In other words, the tournament and the bounties were designed to encourage people to catch them, and to keep them rather than throw them back.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's clever.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually fer real and True ....

No, I didn't.

Now all they have to do is find the "scary invasive Chinese fish that breathe air and walk on land and eat everything in sight and breed like crazy" are illegal immigrant Al Quada terrorerrorists and we've got a Trifecta!

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:54:53 PM EST
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C'mon, it's only a matter of time before the grunion make it past the beach!  Invasion is immenent!  They must be stopped!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 04:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So THAT'S why the Long Beach, California, City Hall is a replica of Hitler's beach defenses.

Them gahdamn gunions won't make it to Ocean Blvd.  

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 04:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I mean people getting Creutfeld-Jacob's Disease from eating cannibalistic fish.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno about fishy CJD, but there's also the scary dinoflagellate that kills fish after giving them icky open sores and makes people sick too.  Plenty of fish hysteria to go around.  Not to mention your garden variety red tides....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:37:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't happen at this moment since they're being fed the ugly pelagic stuff that's pretty much all you get from the oceans these days and they don't dare showing on the shop stalls.

But I saw on french TV a few weeks ago a doc on big french fish farms that go full vertical: since the crap catches are also collapsing, they are breeding their own bait fish to feed the noble species that have a market (Salmon, Daurade, what's the english for that ?? probably Bar/Loup aslo, which you gotta translate from one coast of France to the other)

Guess in a few years, they'll probably grow their krill in clone vats to feed the feed...

Pierre

by Pierre on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 04:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
let's hope that's all they're growing in those vats...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 at 09:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
TBG started on calories, then all food is relevant :).
by Laurent GUERBY on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 03:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I conceed the point.

But ... Fair Warning! ... if afew, et.al., start discussing the effects of beans on Global Warming I'm outta here.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 05:09:05 PM EST
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We've different cultivars, a greater diversity of cultivars, and better cultivars than they had (circa) 1,000 CE.  Research has given us access to knowledge that, when applied, vastly improves yield per plant.  Together, we can produce several orders of magnitude more food/hide than they.

How all this affects urban agriculture beats my pair of Aces.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 02:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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