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Don't you and David E. Landes know anything? Nothing much (and certainly no "technological progress") happened before the English invented Capitalism aroung 1800 (says the Wall Street Journal).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 02:09:37 PM EST
Actually, feudalism in place during the middle ages is capitalism: the lords owned the land, which was the rente, or capital, and they even sometimes owned the people that lived on it. Population levels of that plebe were self-regulating with advanced feed back systems (aka famins and pleagues). It was a near-static, sustainable economy, and probably what we're heading for, in a more industrialized and urbanized fashion (considering your own very accurates quotes of Adam Smith).

My feeling of the true reason for the Renaissance and continued technical progress that ensued, was the competition between elites of european powers from the moment they became nation-states. Before that, all Europe was a homogeneous pack of brute lords vaguely kept in check by latin-speaking clerics.

Then during the XXth century there was competition with communism, the hardly new alternative economic system. And now it is busted, there is little inside competition: the elite is globalized, and will institute a new global feudalism. But they will try to maintain some innovation, at least for the military: they have external challengers in the emerging nations, possibly ressource nationalists (not sure these will last), and they clearly don't feel good with muslim nations, may be that's why they start new crusades.

Pierre

by Pierre on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 05:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My own take on the Renaissance is that it's the result of an adaptive radiation following the mass extinction of the 14th century (the economic and cultural dislocations resulting from the Blach Death).

I really need to research what 19th Century English liberals thought about "the end state of capitalism".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 05:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia says:

One theory that has been advanced is that the devastation caused by the Black Death in Florence (and elsewhere in Europe) resulted in a shift in the world view of people in 14th century Italy. Italy was particularly badly hit by the plague, and it has been speculated that the familiarity with death that this brought thinkers to dwell more on their lives on Earth, rather than on spirituality and the afterlife.[19] It has also been argued that the Black Death prompted a new wave of piety, manifested in the sponsorship of religious works of art.[20] However, this does not fully explain why the Renaissance occurred specifically in Italy in the 14th century. The Black Death was a pandemic that affected all of Europe in the ways described, not only Italy.

I think it's more likely that discovering that the Church didn't have a monopoly on thought or philosophical authority created a huge shock.

One of the things that seems to have changed is the move from small-scale warlords and petty monarchs to collective rather than individual city-state patriotism.

Italian city states somehow sublimated some of the war urge and turned it into a cultural status game. Wars didn't stop, but having a local set of pet artists and intellectuals became an alternative focus for competition.

It would be an interesting thing to try to make it happen again. If power devolves to more local representations, it might - although it's going to be hard to remove the Church of the Economy's monopoly on thought without an external influence, or an outright implosion.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 06:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember from studying literature and art in High School that there was a huge cultural change as a result of the Black Death. Whole new themes appeared, especially the idea that death levels social hierarchies as the Plague affected the clergy and the nobility as well as the peasantry.

Look at Wikipedia's 14th century timeline (a Eurocentric selection as I don't really understand the significance of the events from other continents):


  • The transition from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age
  • Beginning of the Ottoman Empire, early expansion into the Balkans
  • The Avignon papacy transfers the seat of the Popes from Italy to France
  • The Great Famine of 1315-1317 kills millions of people in Europe
  • The Hundred Years' War begins when Edward III of England lays claim to the French throne in 1337.
  • Black Death kills almost half of the population of Europe. (1347 - 1351)
  • The heresy of Lollardy rises in England
  • The Great Schism of the West begins in 1378, eventually leading to 3 simultaneous popes.
  • An account of Buddha's life, translated earlier into Greek by St John of Damascus and widely circulated to Christians as the story of Barlaam and Josaphat, became so popular that Buddha (under the name Josaphat) was made a Catholic saint.
  • Reunification of Poland under Ladislaus I of Poland
  • Peasants' Revolt in England
  • The poet Petrarch coins the term Dark Ages to describe the preceding 900 years in Europe, beginning with the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 410 through to the renewal embodied in the Renaissance.
  • The Scots win the Scottish Wars of Independence.
  • Union of Krewo between Poland and Lithuania.
  • The English word "abacus" used to describe the calculating device from China.
  • Wang Dayuan, the first Chinese to sail into the Mediterranean while visiting Egypt and North Africa from 1334-1339.

Consider the Great Famine as a pre-shock (earthquake analogy) of the Black Death. Then, after the Black death you have a succession of events which indicate great disruption of the religious, cultural, and political order.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 06:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i've just been translating a bit of wang dayuan's geography of the south seas. what an interesting coincidence to see his name come up here.
by wu ming on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 at 03:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm wondering about this. I recently read a book about travels in the Middle Ages ; It mentions Europeans and Arab going to China (Marco Polo), but doesn't talk about Chinese people coming west...

Could you tell us more about him? Or point to an english resource?


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 at 06:36:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
which hopefully will help me to leverage my little dissertation, should i ever get it done. most of the chinese travel accounts and geographies aren't translated. of the books that i'm working with, the 13th century zhufan zhi, a geography of the south seas (albeit not a travel account, he talked to a bunch of arab and chinese merchants for the details) by zhao rugua was translated by hirth and rockwell in 1911, although it's long out of print, paul pelliot translated zhou daguan's zhenla fengtu ji, a 14th century embassy record to cambodia, into french, and zhou qufei's lingwai daida12th century geography of south china and the south seas, was translated into german. beyond that, zheng he's 15th century voyages all over southeast asia, india and east africa have been the topic of more aattention, with edward dryer's zheng he: china and the oceans in the early ming dynasty, 1405-1433 being the most credible of the lot (don't get me started on gavin menzies).

as for wang dayuan, he claims to have actually visited all the places that he lists in the daoyi zhilue [geography of island barbarians], but his accounts of many places appear to crib from earlier geographies, so it's hard to tell if he personally went there (in a manner similar to marco polo, actually), but clearly he had access to people that did. lots of merchants going back and forth between china and southeast asia and india, probably less getting all the way into the mediterranean.

by wu ming on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 at 03:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be an interesting thing to try to make it happen again. If power devolves to more local representations, it might - although it's going to be hard to remove the Church of the Economy's monopoly on thought without an external influence, or an outright implosion.

it's hard right now because of tectonic friction between paradigms, more heat than light being produced....reminds me of fran's comment on a thread lately about the left being mostly against stuff, not for anything.

as for the 'church of the economy', it's a ponzi scheme,as has been detailed here many times, not least by contrast with new models like LLP's, and will fall under its own weight, taking those too near to it's teats, and leving by default what you suggest, a decentralised, more local representation of power.

great comment, tbg, as usual.

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 at 07:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My feeling of the true reason for the Renaissance and continued technical progress that ensued, was the competition between elites of european powers from the moment they became nation-states. Before that, all Europe was a homogeneous pack of brute lords vaguely kept in check by latin-speaking clerics.

Then during the XXth century there was competition with communism, the hardly new alternative economic system.

And also competition with the Nazis, who were technologically adept, even if they had no other redeeming features.

Cold War progress would have been impossible without German technology - either directly through co-option of people like Von Braun, indirectly through the pre-war exodus to the US, as a direct response to real challenges like Enigma, or to perceived challenges like the largely-mythical Nazi bomb.

WWII made a terrible mess of Europe, but without it we might still be using bakelite phones and large thermionic calculating machines.

I agree that without a sophisticated external threat, progress is stagnating. Cold War spending was more or less directly responsible for PCs, the Internet, for satellite links, and for other innovations that are taken for granted now. But the US culture of R&D that began in embryonic form after WWII and flourished in the 50s and early 60s has been almost dismantled now.

Military research has taken repeated detours to wacky-land and seems to have drifted away from seedcorn theoretical investigations into building bigger, and - most of all - more expensive hardware, largely for the sake of it, and irrespective of real strategic effectiveness.

The US military has turned itself into a very expensive, mobile and globally deployable Maginot line.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 05:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And also competition with the Nazis, who were technologically adept, even if they had no other redeeming features.

Germany (and the German-speaking countries) was leading the world in so many scientific and technical fields in the decades up to the 1930's that I used to joke "if it hadn't been for Hitler we'd all be speaking German now".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 06:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's possibly not a joke. Hitler was such a total ass-clown and loser that there was never any chance at all of the Third Reich being anything more than an epic disaster.

But if Weimar hadn't fallen apart, the Germans might well have bought the entire British Empire - much like China is buying the US now.

Between the wars 'Made in Germany' had some of the same meaning in the UK that 'Made in China' has for the US today. Only with more of an innovative edge.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 06:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is intended as a semi-serious retort to Americans saying that, had it not been for them, Europeans would now be speaking German.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2007 at 06:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like the Chinese in a few years: if it weren't for Bush we'd all be speaking English by now.
by bil on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 at 10:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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