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by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 11:51:13 PM EST
Sarkozy orders accord on managing exchange rates as euro reaches new high - International Herald Tribune

FRANKFURT: The dollar sank to its lowest level ever against the euro Wednesday as fears about a steeper economic downturn in the United States intensified. President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, who has been the most vocal leader in Europe in decrying the impact on exports, told his new finance minister to seek an accord among euro-zone countries for managing exchange rates.

The euro, used by 13 countries from Ireland to Slovenia, traded as high as $1.3787 against the dollar, and was also up against the British pound, which hit a new 26-year high of $2.0363. The euro was also up sharply against the Japanese yen, to around 168 yen to the euro.

This picture of global currency gyrations - with the dollar the clear loser and the euro the only clear winner - reflects a similar conviction about economic fundamentals that has taken shape in recent weeks, economists said.

The rapid deterioration of the American housing market is being felt through higher interest rates and a rise in defaults hitting the complex financial instruments used to bankroll shaky mortgages. That has nurtured a view of a weaker U.S. economy.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 11:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / World - Merkel rounds on Paris over euro and ECB

Angela Merkel's political honeymoon with Nicolas Sarkozy came to an end on Wednesday when the German chancellor warned the French president to stop undermining the euro and the independence of the European Central Bank.

The abrupt rebuff ended weeks of diplomatic silence from Ms Merkel over Mr Sarkozy's flurry of contentious economic proposals.

Asked by German tele­vision whether she supported the president's calls for a weaker euro to help eurozone exports, she answered "absolutely not. I would definitely object to this, and so would the entire government".

"The population should be protected against inflation. This is very important. That is why the independence of the European Central Bank is the alpha and omega. And that is why Germany will not budge on this," she said.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 11:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not possible Sarkozy was unaware that, for Germany, hard-money policy is the "alpha and omega". He must always have known he'd get nowhere with calls for devaluation. In other words, he was grandstanding. And he's already getting called on it.

As for Merkel, saying the "population must be protected from inflation" when you have in fact obtained a competitive advantage by reducing labour costs on that same population's back, takes a fair amount of chutzpah.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 01:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
let me play the centrist social-liberal on your last point. I think that the fight against inflation, and the desire to have a strong currency, are valid long term policies, and do require a tough central bank, as the Bundesbank was and as the ECB is, to a lesser extent.  That's what gives you an economy more focused on high value, price-insensitive goods.

This does not preclude high wages (quite the opposite in fact), as Germany shows, and only requires that wage increases be in line with productivity increases.

The recent crunch on Germa nwages has come from the combination of an overvalued DM entering the euro (misplaced pride), and the zeitgeist of relentless focus on company profits, which has unfairly tipped the balance too far in sharing productivity gains.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree on the logic of events, but the fact still remains that the wage crunch has acted as "competitive disinflation" and increased the competitivity of German products within the eurozone.

What I object to in Merkel's statement is the inference that the "population"'s interests are being protected when in fact it's the "population" and other economies in the eurozone that are footing the bill for the mark euro.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 you are right on his grandstanding. He's abusing the "thankfully France is back in Europe" theme (which is real in Brussels) for now; we'll see how long that lasts.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Portugal Sets Ambitious Goals for its EU Presidency | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 11.07.2007
Portugese Prime Minister Jose Socrates presented his agenda to the European Union parliament on Wednesday. The focus was on ending the impasse over a new EU treaty and appointing a new anti-terrorism coordinator.

Socrates told EU parliamentarians in Strasbourg that his country's tenure in the rotating six-month position would "mark the end of the deadlocks and blockages that have held the European project back too long.

 

"European citizens demand answers to questions which directly affect their everyday lives and where they recognize that Europe can produce concrete results that make a difference and contribute to improving their living conditions," Socrates said.

 

Socrates' chief task will be to get all the EU's 27 member states to agree to long-overdue procedural reforms to its basic treaty. But he may find it difficult to deliver on his words.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 11:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was hoping the ambitious goal was going to be to rein in Poland.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 04:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what else does this mean:


to agree to long-overdue procedural reforms to its basic treaty.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Italian Farmers Protest Food Labeling | World Latest | Guardian Unlimited

BOLOGNA, Italy (AP) - Tens of thousands of Italian farmers protested Wednesday against the lack of clear and detailed labels on agricultural products, saying cheap imports from China were hurting their bottom line.

Protesters marched through downtown Bologna demanding the implementation of a law approved by parliament last year that would force Italian companies to specify on labels the origin of the ingredients of foods and drugs.

The Coldiretti agriculture lobby, which organized the demonstration, said more 150,000 people participated.

Coldiretti said large-scale food-processing companies increasingly purchase raw foods abroad at low prices and mix them with Italian-grown products. The result is that it is becoming impossible to identify the origin of the contents of products such as fruits and vegetables, it said.

Such mixing has become a greater concern in light of recent scandals involving tainted products from China, a growing list that includes frozen fish to juice.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
good for the Italians. We have our own issues with vague labelling in the UK, and there's always a corporate lobby invovled in creating the (profitable) confusion.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 08:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
MEPs defy member states on EU symbols - EUobserver.com
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The European Parliament is considering flying the EU flag and playing the EU anthem more often in its own buildings as part of a political message to member states who have scrapped the union's symbols from the proposed new EU treaty.

The parliament on Wednesday (11 July) adopted its opinion on the EU's reform treaty which was agreed by EU leaders last month and which will be subject to detailed negotiations in a so-called Inter Governmental Conference (IGC) in the coming months.

In Wednesday's opinion, MEPs welcomed the fact that the reform treaty blueprint "safeguards much of the substance" of the original EU constitution, which was rejected in popular referenda in France and the Netherlands in 2005.

But the EU assembly also "regrets" drafting changes in the new style treaty. It has been stripped of all constitutional elements while explicitly suggesting EU's powers can be limited and handed back to member states. It also gives the UK a special opt-out from the EU's charter of fundamental rights.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:03:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
MEPs to clash with EU states on postal monopolies - EUobserver.com
EUOBSERVER / STRASBOURG - The European parliament and EU governments are likely to clash over national postal monopolies, as the assembly has endorsed plans to open the EU market for delivering light-weigh letters and postcards to full competition from 2011.

On Wednesday (11 July), a broad majority of MEPs - 512 in favour and 155 against - set 31 December 2010 as the deadline for eliminating any remaining monopolies on mail weighing below 50 grams, the last category where postal companies face no rivals.

German conservative MEP Markus Ferber, in charge of the dossier, expressed satisfaction over the result, although he admitted making some concessions to have the idea flying.

For example, the twelve newest EU entrants as well as those with a particularly difficult topography including a large number of islands, such as Greece, will be granted two extra years to adapt to changes.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spaghetti Shock in Italy: Biofuels Boom Results in Pricey Pasta - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Italian pasta makers say bad harvests and competition from biofuel manufacturers have led to a durum disaster. Consumers will be paying for it by summer's end.

 Pasta prices are going up. And it's not just the truffles. Mamma mia! The price of a plate of pasta is expected to rise 20 percent this summer as a bad wheat harvest and increasing competition from biofuel manufacturers send the price of delicate, delicious durum wheat skyrocketing.

Italian consumers, accustomed to paying 70 euro cents ($1) for a pack of the good stuff -- half the cost of a cup of coffee -- will be the first to feel the pinch, but the Italian Pasta Manufacturer's Association will be passing the costs on to export customers as well. "Pasta producers have tried, with growing difficulty that has now become no longer sustainable, to absorb the high cost differentials," the Association announced last week. "But this situation cannot go on any longer in the face of the dynamics of the durum wheat market."

Italy's famous macaroni makers are the latest to find themselves at the wrong end of competition from the booming biofuel industry, which converts corn, sugar, wheat and other crops to fuel and energy. As biofuels catch on, governments are increasing subsidies. Farmers are finding themselves in an unfamiliar position: a seller's market. Courted by food manufacturers and energy firms alike, they're raising prices and shifting production to crops that can be used to make ethanol for cars, heat homes or generate electricity.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:04:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | EU signals bigger role in sport
The European Commission has unveiled a white paper containing ideas that could lead to greater EU regulation of sport.

The paper says sport should only have limited immunity from rules governing the EU internal market.

It also announces a study to assess whether legislation is needed to govern the activities of agents.

Fifa president Sepp Blatter has said politicians should leave sport "in peace" - but Uefa described the white paper as a big step forward.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:05:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Libya HIV death sentences upheld
Libya's Supreme Court has upheld death sentences imposed in 2004 on five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor for infecting children with HIV.

However, a mediating body is now said to have agreed a financial settlement with the children's families.

The High Judiciary Council, which can overrule the Supreme Court, is to meet on Monday to confirm, annul or amend the death penalty verdicts.

The imprisonment of the medics has caused an international outcry.

They insist they are innocent of deliberately giving tainted blood to the children at the Benghazi hospital in 1998.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:06:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New EU treaty to be communications 'prority' for Brussels - EUobserver.com
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The European Commission is planning on making the promotion of a new treaty one of its main tasks in the coming months, after the previous more grandly name EU constitution was rejected in two founding member states.

EU communications commissioner Margot Wallstrom on Tuesday (10 July) said she wants to discuss the final treaty with citizens.

Communicating will be "one of the main political priorities", said the commissioner who is planning on highlighting the fight against climate change and energy solidarity as reasons why citizens should like the new document.

The new treaty - essentially a repackaging of most of the draft EU constitution - is set to be finalised by the end of the year with one year for ratification, and is to come into force by mid 2009.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brussels moots EU action on bio-terrorism - EUobserver.com
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The European Commission is launching an EU-wide debate on what type of joint action the bloc should take to prevent the risk of biological materials and pathogens being used by terrorists.

Presenting the paper on Wednesday (11 July), Commissioner Franco Frattini, in charge of security issues, admitted that the threat of bio-terrorism is statistically low but that its consequences could be "devastating".

"I couldn't tell my daughter that the risk doesn't exist," he said, adding he could not be more specific about the commission's "sensitive intelligence information" on the subject because he did not want to "give indication to possible suspect people".

The commissions' paper points out that with the open borders inside the union and the global transport of goods, terrorists could get hold of materials that could potentially infect people and animals or contaminate soil and buildings.

EU health commissioner Markos Kyprianou stressed that such attacks could happen simultaneously in several member states which is the main problem the new strategy aims to tackle.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:07:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
materials that could potentially infect people and animals or contaminate soil and buildings

Industry and farming have been doing this for yonks with the authorities' blessing.

What a bucket of slime from Frattini. His daughter, the hint at secret intelligence he can't tell us about. The risk is lower than his daughter's chances of getting knocked over on a pedestrian crossing, but he'll talk it up all the same.

Scare people, increase your power. Fear is a wonderful thing.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 01:58:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I attended an interesting seminar in Lausanne a couple of years ago on "Economic Terrorism" hosted by the US Dept of Homeland Security and attended by the CIA, French & Swiss security people etc

I was presenting in relation to the susceptibility of the global oil markets to "Economic Terrorism". For anyone interested the main points I made were that:
(a)centralised clearing of oil futures markets is not as safe as the financial markets assume, and in fact constitute potential "single points of failure"; and
(b) the only difference between an "Economic Terrorist" melting down the market, and hedge funds doing so, is motive.

I digress.

"Bio-terrorism" was one of the main subjects of course and there were some pretty impressive people speaking. One of them said (and convinced all of us) that the best way of buggering up the US would be to seed a bit of Foot and Mouth around and watch the beef industry implode in the same way that the UK one did.

The economic damage would be phenomenal.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 03:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I won't belittle the effects (on farming) of an epidemic of foot and mouth. But it is not that easy to "seed" diseases and set off epidemics*. A successful campaign would call for a number of expert and efficient people capable of acting in secret and doing the seeding undetected. If it's the latest car bomb brigade, they'll be the ones with foot and mouth while the cows go home laughing.

As to the economic effects, did the UK really stagger under the last epidemic of foot and mouth?

* BTW, it has always been a theme of popular fear that epidemics are started up by hidden enemies in our midst. It's still easy to play on.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hee, given the recently demonstrated incapacity of terrorists to explode even the most modestly ambitious bomb, the probability of them getting something sophisticated such as this threat together must be mathematically indistinguishable from zero.

Why do our supposed "guardians" always imagine the most fiendish plots of terrifying devastation that would involve the co-operation of many experts in diverse fields when, time after time, a dissipated independent cell structure of low general expertise is the one that, by necessity, terrorists favour ?

It's kinda like the missile system the yanks are installing in Poland and the Czech republic. The iranians don't have a bomb, they don't have a missile but we sure need a threat to justify this stupid missile that doesn't work. If you really wanted to target a bomb with pinpoint accuracy, a missile is your last option. UPS is much more reliable, but I don't see anybody worrying about them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 08:32:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I think the missile system in Poland has to be offensive and aimed at Russia. Unless it's exclusively about diverting tax dollars to defence contractors.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 08:52:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does UPS screen for nuclear devices?

It seems to me that if you're going to have a nuclear war, Fed Ex and other carriers must be the most energy efficient and cost-effective way to deliver a warhead.

Warheads aren't actually all that big, you know.

(Although obviously you'd have to hide the oversized LED countdown display and make sure all of the wires inside were the same colour, just in case.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:02:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although obviously you'd have to hide the oversized LED countdown display and make sure all of the wires inside were the same colour, just in case.

ROTFLMAO

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All US ports, airports, freighter routes are fitted with gamma detection portals. You can't ship a nuke unnoticed through these. But since the nuke could do a lot of damage by detonating while still aboard a ship, they now want to have freight scanned at the sending port...

http://www.amptek.com/grad.html

scanner on location (can you spot it :-)

foreign scans:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2007/04/14/stories/2007041401100700.htm

This won't protect them from a bomb hidden in the structures of the ship (which is bound to happen since the ships are maintained in the deep thirld world). Then they need off-shore handling platforms...

Pierre

by Pierre on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:14:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And since the ports are now owned by interests in the Gulf, who's to say that there can't be a little planned negligence ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 10:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hussh !
The less you know, the safer you are.

Pierre
by Pierre on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 11:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Britain and Russia on the brink of diplomatic crisis | Russia | Guardian Unlimited
Britain is on the brink of a diplomatic crisis with Russia which could see the expulsion of several diplomats from London and tit-for-tat reprisals by Moscow. The Foreign Office and Downing Street are preparing to send a strong signal to the Kremlin following its refusal to extradite Andrei Lugovoi, the former KGB agent suspected of murdering Alexander Litvinenko last November. On Monday, Russian prosecutors formally announced that Mr Lugovoi would not be handed over to the UK, on the grounds that Russia's constitution prevents his extradition.

Article continues The government was last night considering counter-measures to show Britain's extreme displeasure at the Kremlin's decision, and the seriousness with which it takes the "terrible" murder of Mr Litvinenko - a British citizen and fierce critic of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. The options include the possible expulsion of Russian diplomats from the London embassy, and the withdrawal of cooperation in several areas, including education, trade, social affairs and counter-terrorism.

Yesterday a spokesman for Russia's foreign ministry, Mikhail Kamynin, warned that London was in danger of jeopardising its relationship with Moscow. "I don't understand the position of the British government. It is prepared to sacrifice our relations in trade and education for the sake of one man," he said, adding: "Our position is clearly in line with Russia's constitution and legislation."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 12:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha, Britain having a spat with Russia is somewhat akin to a flea biting a dog; annoying but hardly a problem.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 08:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's objectionable about a country not extraditing its citizens?

There are very few cases (UK bankers to the US comes to mind, re Enron)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:30:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or US agents to European countries.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:46:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean, the UK extraditions of UK citizens actually took place. The case you mention did not, unless I'm gravely mistaken?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 10:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lib Dems plan 4p cut in tax rate - BBC

The Lib Dems want to cut the basic rate of income tax from 20p to 16p in tax changes they say will leave households earning up to about £68,000 better off.

"Green" taxes on cars and flights and the ending of £13.5bn of tax breaks for high earners would fund the cuts.

Council tax would be replaced by a local income tax and inheritance tax and stamp duty thresholds raised.

Leader Sir Menzies Campbell said: "Tax cuts for the majority will be paid for by the wealthy minority."

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:21:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently the Lib Dems think that they made a mistake in the last general election by making the break-even point too low (£40-odd thousand instead of £68k).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:24:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not start by cutting all tax on the first £5-10k? That's what I call progressive taxation.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's already tax-exempt (I don't remember the exact amount, but it's in that range).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:35:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
£5225 is free for 07 to 08.

The first £2330 over that is taxed at 10%.

Between £2331 and £34,600 the rate is currently 22%.

After that it's 40%.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Lib Dems also want to replace the Council Tax (a regressive tax on the value of one's home, whether one owns it or not - I need to diary just how regressive this is) with "local income tax".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:50:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh?  How can they possibly tax a home you don't own?
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You still pay tax if you're renting.

It's not totally insane. Council Tax pays for local services, so if you live in an area you'll be benefiting from those services.

But politically it's a legacy of the flat-rate poll tax. which was so unpopular it caused riots.

Local income tax is an interesting idea, but presumably people with many homes will be able to avoid it by moving around a lot during the year, which makes 'local' rather indeterminate.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or tourist areas with lots of holiday homes will lose out on income.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:03:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is not a problem if the property owner is taxed.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But, again, the tax will be passed on to the tenant in the rent.

Which is not a bad thing either: it's much better than agreeing on a rent for the place and then being hit with the council tax bill.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:09:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But will it? The market rental is what people are prepared to occupy a property.

If you charge a property "owner" a levy based upon the land rental value you are taxing his income from the "privilege" of exclusive rights over the Commons.

If he tries to pass that tax cost on to a tenant, he will fail, because the market rental value is what tenants can afford to pay.

Moreover, it's one of the most easily enforceable taxes there is.

Won't pay? Thank you very much, that's government land now. Let's talk about it...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:24:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Market rental is to some extent determined by what people have to pay to occupy a property. People have to live somewhere, and they can't/won't all move to a completely different area.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but Chris is right that the sticker shock of £900 + £100 is much less than that of £1000.

In other words, if you taxed the owner it would probably slightly reduce the total amount paid by the tenant, and the owner's effective rent.

Which can only be a good thing as it discourages wealth (property) concentration.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That depends on the dynamics. I'd imagine most landlords would simply put up rents to compensate - those with a lot of properties would be bankrupted otherwise - so I'm not convinced there would be a lot of downward pressure.

Building more council houses and other affordable housing would be a lot more useful. As would adding some supertax bands at the high end for people with mansions and swimming pools. And removing the exemption on holiday homes.

(Unoccupied properties are exempt, and obviously it's easy to pretend that a furnished holiday or weekend cottage is unoccupied.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 08:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the risk of repeating myself: untaxed absentee ownership is wrong.

But what's even more wrong is this.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
presumably people with many homes will be able to avoid it by moving around a lot during the year, which makes 'local' rather indeterminate.

Not if they have to declare a primary residence for tax purposes, and are perhaps taxed at a higher rate on properties that are not their primary residences.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:08:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but people don't get taxed higher for their secondary properties, do they?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not?
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People who write tax law are more likely to have more than one property than the average population.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Danes have had a pretty fair system for years.


Danish Property Taxes
Owners of residential property are liable for two kinds of property tax:

Property Value Tax (Ejendomsværdiskat) : this tax is levied by the state at a rate of 1 percent per annum, with properties being valued every year. The tax only has to be paid if you live in the property yourself.

Land Tax (Grundskyld): this tax is split into two components, one of which is paid to the county council and the other to the local district council. The amount payable is set by the local district council.

That hasn't stopped continuing agitation by the property owning "usual suspects" for "fairer" (to them) taxes!

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Untaxed absentee ownership is all but fair.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:15:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a point, but it's not a huge issue there as far as I know: not like "Buy to let Britain".

Worse than that, the current government put a "tax stop" on it so that the growth in property values (sorry, prices) since 2001 have gone untaxed.

To great acclaim from the people who own the wealth of course.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's just say instead of taxing the owner and letting the owner pass on the tax to the resident in the rent, they just tax the resident.

The rules for who is liable for council tax are somewhat complex, and the exemptions are hideously complicated.

Plus, the tax is based on what the value of the property was in 1991. If a house has since been broken down into flats, you might be paying tax on the whole house (though you can have this corrected, I believe).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gah...

Swedish low and middle income earners must pay the highest taxes in the world, while billionaires are exempt from the wealth tax (which was abolished for everyone this year, but anyway).

€0-2000 (just increased to €4000) is tax exempt, all income over that 30-35 %, and all over about €30,000 is 40-45 % and then over maybe €60,000 50-55 %.

Mad.

Did I mention that capital income taxes are 30 %, with no exemption for low capital incomes? There are loopholes that help a little, but of course only rich/interested people use them.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you at least get decent public services? Because the UK's are chronically underfunded.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:04:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Decent, well, it's all relative I guess. The public sectors I and my friends have worked in (museum, insane asylum, handicap home, care for the elderly, care for the elderly who are also insane) have all been horrendously badly managed, both from a financial and humanitarian point of view.

Schools are bad not because a lack of money, they are well funded, but due to mad post-68 ideology. Hospitals are excellent, just as good as in France, but with enormous waiting times.

The problems is that taxes are to high in general and for low income earners in particular (30-35 %!), and only a third of the total government budget is used to pay for schools, hospitals, police, defence, governance and all those things, while two thirds go to far too generous unemployment and and sick leave benefits. Cut these benefits somewhat and use the money to cut taxes for low and middle income earners. This is incidentally what the center-right government is doing.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 07:24:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're assuming that private sector management is better.

Judging by what happens in the UK, often it's not.

It looks an insoluble problem - on the public side you have jobsworthism and creative atrophy. On the private side you have deckchair management and predation.

Is it too much to wonder if things would improve if public sector employees were made more and given the kinds of performance bonuses that you get at board level in corporations?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 08:58:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Private" is a synonym for "Limited Liability Company".

Once you understand that there are alternatives to that legal structure, you understand that there are other - more optimal - ways of sharing risks and rewards between "Public" and "Private".

The rest is a matter of self organisation...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes private is better, sometimes public is. I just know that some of the public places are insanely bad.

In my experience this is mostly due to extremely bad managers who get their jobs at these places not as a reward for their skill, but rather as a demotion for being a bad manager at someplace more important. So instead of getting fired they get the chance to ruin something less important. And this happens over and over again, with problem bosses shifted around for decades.

On top of this, in the local (pretty much "council") sector, you can't get promoted to manager for being a skilled worker. No, you need a (useless) multi-year manager training. And as everyone hate their job, no one skilled really feels like spending several years on an useless education which is zero use outside this job that you hate.

Another huge problem is the total lack of transparency, it is completely impossible to find out who is your bosses boss, so you don't know whom to complain to. On top of that, if you complain to the union your boss will fire you (or rather ignores renewing your contract, as the smart bad boss of course never gives anyone a permanet position). The Unions are of course completely complacent, as they have been in league with the soc dems for 100 years and have never had to fight anyone in the last 50, especially not the public sector which they feel for.

This awful working environment results in that no one keeps their job for long, and you have a massive turnover of people, and huge amounts of resources are needed to educate these new people over and over, who'll quit when they had it in 6 months anyway. And as you need lots of people all the time, you get bad quality people, addicts, criminals and all kinds of people who you really don't want taking cared of the handicapped or elderly.

So, I don't know. Maybe there are good low-status public service system. But all the ones I know of are useless, while the private (but still tax-financed) are usually better, even though there are awful private ones too.

So, I think it shouldn't be looked at as private vs. public, but rather as good vs. bad. Privatizing shakes up the moldy old strucutures,hopefully gives accountability and transparency, but if anyone figures out a way to this without privatizing, please be my guest.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 09:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some UK household income statistics for 2005/6:

And a piece in The Guardian: You might be richer than you think (September 29, 2003)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 12th, 2007 at 06:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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