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I wish I could confirm the nice presentation about the Madrid rail system, but I can only say that it is well integrated and, combined with the bus system, it gives very good coverage.  

The Metro system is run by the region of Madrid (I think the agency is called Mitra) and it covers the metropolitan area at large, with about 6 million people.  The new extensions are plain nice, but the older parts are below tacky and poorly maintained.

The rapid transit, Cercanias, is part of national railways, Renfe, and has dedicated tunnels within the city and runs above ground from the outskirts.  

I can´t argue about the new work being on schedule, but it´s hard to believe because we have not had a new national holiday...  A few days ago I read that the Madrid region had accumulated debt of over €10 billion, about 70% from the last four years and most of it from the Metro construction.

The light rail lines that were supposed to open well before the May elections, may be about to start.

Wish your version was true, but corrupt rightwing politics and capitalism are in full swing here.


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 at 07:08:21 PM EST
This warrants a longer reply.

First I emphasize what I also wrote in the diary conclusion: I collected positive examples to follow, and didn't want to claim that everything is rosy anywhere. It was only MetroSur I brought up as example for on time and budget, and the entire subway system only for speed of growth, not even for general good state of being.

But to talk about the problems of the Madrid system is a bit difficult, because on one hand, some accusations (like deficit spending) sound like accusations usually levelled at left-wing governments, on the other hand, everything is relative. E.h., you meantion a few months delay in opening light rail projects, but I only smile given that what I see as 'normal' elsewhere is something like four years of delays at the planning and permits stage, then construction taking two years longer than planned and the opened stuff is only half-finished...

Let's follow the money theme. The cost-effectiveness of the MetroSur project is without parallel worldwide, so if direct corruption was involved, either there s much more corrupton elsewhere, or corruption was masked by even more impressive efficiency.

What does seem probably however is a second level of sleaze, that of getting orders for friendly business, sleaze even if that business does its job fine. Still, in Madrid's case, what was built for mass transit at least made sense (though it could be that lines projected benefitted richer neighbourhoods more, but I don't know Madrid Region's socioeconomy) -- it can't be compared for example with the Italian practice of things, where new lines are often built in the most expensive way possible (say miles upon miles of elevated sections) and with overcapacity. Also, in my memory the combined sum of 12 years of metro construction doesn't add up to €10 billion.

You mention old lines in bad shape; renovating those is certainly a more difficult work than building a new line, though IIRC in the 1999-2003 period, the circle line closing also involved major renovation.

But before you think I'd absolve the PP, let's dig deeper.

Politically, I'd connect the big metro expansion to the previous Madrid region governor and present city major, Gallardón. That the current extension exceeds the previous and didn't go under into too spectacular right-wing corruption may only be due to  the heiress's ambition to measure up to Gallardón.

Meanwhile, as Migu repeatedly told me, while Gallardón was busy with the subway, his predecessor was busy building roads, which may explain one less nice thing about the metro: from the last figures I saw, its ridership only grew with the transport market, that is the share of the metro didn't increase.

Going further, am aware of a certain strand of corrupt rightwing politics in Spanish transport projects: a practice of pushing though projects with little preparation and extreme cost-cutting. The Madrid-Barcelona high-speed line as pushed by Aznar is a prime example, with ignored geotechical warnings resulting in expensive stabilising works in tunnels whose mountain simply began to slip, or betting on a non-functional signal system. But there are also Spanish road tunnels which have a bad fame of lacking basic safery systems.

I don't know whether Gallardón was lucky to not hit any big problems or if he (or the people he appointed) was truly a better manager.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 05:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, in Madrid's case, what was built for mass transit at least made sense (though it could be that lines projected benefitted richer neighbourhoods more, but I don't know Madrid Region's socioeconomy)
Actually, Gallardón extended the metro lines into mostly left-leaning areas. Metrosur serves what used to be called the "Red Belt", the posh areas being to the Northwest such as Pozuelo de Alarcón. The extension of line #7, line #8 to the airport, line #9 out to Rivas and Arganda, and line #1 into Vallecas, all serve poorer areas. This must be one important factor to explain the electoral debacle of the left in the recent regional elections. However, as Major Gallardón has turned to building roads, under and overpasses, all for the private car.
You mention old lines in bad shape; renovating those is certainly a more difficult work than building a new line, though IIRC in the 1999-2003 period, the circle line closing also involved major renovation.
There is one big problem with the Metro expansion, and that is that apparently the frequency/capacity of the trains hasn't increased in those lines that have been extended, which leads to overcrowding. For instance, the extension of line #9 to Rivas and Arganda in the Southeast means that a lot of people now use the Metro instead of the car, bus or train to commute into the city. You would need to increase the frequency of service in order to avoid overcrowding (I have seen reports of passenger mutinies: something unheard of before Aguirre). This may be one of the was in which Aguirre is a worse manager of the Metro than Gallardón was. Also, the unions have claimed maintenance is being neglected. The sad part is that opposition to the right-wing government is carried out mostly by the unions, not by the left political parties.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 06:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this background, very interesting.

In the meantime, I remembered something from the time of the Gallardón-Aguirre change: when plans for 2003-2007 were first discussed, focus was just on renewal and broadening of some old lines with narrow tunnels, but then the more ambitious extension plans came up.

What is the present frequency of service on the overcrowded lines?

Finally, what's up with the Left in Madrid? Do they even control district councils?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 06:33:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is a district council?

The left is in disarray. But more seriously there is this idea that day-to-day opposition on issues during the entire 4-year term is not as important as parachuting the right face into the candidacy a couple of months before the election, with disastrous consequences.

Not having been in Madrid for a long time, I cannot really answer you with hard data about frequency of service, just hearsay. here you can see the "average interval between trains", broken down by line and time/weekday within each line.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 06:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do Madrid's districts lack a lower-level elected body of their own, or did I use the wrong word for a subdivision of a city?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 08:07:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Madrid is divided into 21 districts, each with a Junta Municipal de Distrito (District Municipal Board) of which I know very little. It doesn't have locally elected representatives, but acts as a point of contact between the City administration and the citizens. There is (I think) one Concejal de Distrito but this is akin to a centrally appointed governor.

Administration is all top-down. I touched briefly on that here.

I really should investigate this more. The Spanish wikipedia claims the function of District Municipal Boards is to organize citizens' participation, but I have never seen this happen. Granted, I may not have been paying attention.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 08:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Got delayed with adding: good link, in all the detail needed! In Budapest, peak hour is officially 2-4 minutes, though my impression is that on the busiest (but not longest) line, in practice they can do it at 1.5-3 minutes too (and still it is crowded, but that has several other reasons); I see a couple of Madrid's lines get close to this, but 4-5 minutes seems more typical (say for the line 9 you mentioned: 3½ - 5½). So they could very well do it more frequently, with modern signalling, even twice as frequent as here. (Tho' that depends on line length, too.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 09:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think upgrading the signaling system is as sexy as boring tunnels.

What can you say about the accident in the Valencia Metro last year? The local and regional governments were not too keen on a public investigation, and the unions claimed they had complained about problems around the stretch of track where the accident happened.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 09:32:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have deeper insights beyond the theory that the driver had a heart attack or something and then the train speeded with the double of the speed permitted at the derailment site. If this is true, this is indeed a case where not a modern, but a 60-year-old train safety system should have braked down the train. (Note however that on networks with such systems, accidents during signalling system or track repair are common... when people rely too much on it.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 12:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After some searching, I found that Metro Valencia is fitted with Siemens Switzerland's ZSI-27 train control system, which is prety modern and fit for vehicles with high acceleration, though it is a point-form system (e.g. sents permitted speed signals at fixed points). But according to one anonymous note in a Swiss rail forum, apparently the system was sometimes shut down on the Valencia metros, because in great heat, there felse false signals leading to brakings. I see if I can find something definite on how the system fared during the big accident.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 01:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Found something. Migeru or another Spanish reader, could you decrypt and translate the third paragraph of this Google-cached article? It sounds like something even for my professional interest.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 01:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forget it. I could Babelfish this. Apparently, the system's precision was questioned for working before the speed limit tolerance was reached, but the real problem seems to have been the lack of a speed-limiting signal point before the critical curve. Now that's really stupid.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 01:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a really tendentious and angry article in Valencian [Catalan] with a quoted paragraph in Spanish:
According to the scientific police [forensics] in the automatic train control system of the Siemens ZSI-27 unit involved in the accident, from June 20 to July 3 of 2004 "one can repeatedly read the activation of the emergency braking because of excess speed". Most often this happens for "exceeding the established speed by 9 to 10 Km/h", but in others this happens "without reaching this limit". Therefore, the General Directorate of the POlice concludes that "this emergency braking has been activated on occasion without exceeding the limiting speed, which might lead to questioning the system's precision". The report continues by explaining that "it will be possible to discard the fainting of the driver", because the automatic mechanism of the train, denominated "dead man", hasn't been activated as can be gleaned from the data obtained from the Event Recording Box Teloc 2200, also known as black box.


Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 02:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, if running trains every 2 minutes doesn't eliminate overcrowding, what's the solution? Laying out another track?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 04:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Firstly, lengthen trains (expensive to do in a subway as you have to dig the enlarged platforms ; it has been done on the Ligne 1 in Paris). Then, make a new, somehow parallel line, which is much more expensive but allows better service (as the line only has to double the most heavily trafficked part, and part ways later on : in Paris, see Ligne 1, Ligne 14 and RER A which are partly parallel between Gare de Lyon and Chatelet)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 05:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe at least some of the lines in the Madrid metro would allow a 50% increase in train length at peak times.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 05:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly what linca said. Madrid couid also go for a Paris RER-type development of the Cercanías lines: there are already the two North-South lines, if one or more are added along other axes, a metro-relieving express metro network could emerge.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 01:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looking at the Cercanias map, I don't see how that's possible. All lines already end at Atocha or Nuevos Ministerios and have stops within the city limits (the map is here, clich "plano" for a javascript window).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 05:02:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not quite sure what your objection is. The point is just that instead of all lines touching Atocha, and Cercanías access in the core of the city being constrained to the North-South line, some lines would be redirected to (or doubled with a new line going along) new city-crossing lines.

Say,

  1. C-7 and C-8 (or new C-17 and C-18 llines) would get a new East-to-Northwest tunnel loosely parallel to the corridor of metro line 7,
  2. both ends of C-5 (becoming new lines C-15 and C-25) would be connected to a new Southwest-to-Northeast tunnel loosely parallel to the corridor of metro line 5,
  3. maybe a ring line in the East beyond metro line 6 would make sense.

If metro line 9 is the most crowded, the first project would make most sense first. (Then maybe even the outer section could be converted back to Cercanías, and metro line 9 continued along a slightly different path instead.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 07:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the idea of RER was to take two commutar rail lines with terminus on different sides of the city and join then through the city. What I'm saying is that all that seems to have been done already.

On the other hand, Madrid used to have more train stations. "Norte" (in the West of the town) is now a shopping centre at Principe Pio. That could have been used for a triangular tunnel linking it to Nuevos Ministerios and Atocha.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 07:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Besides the shopping center, Principe Pio is still a Cercanias station combined with a Metro station one level below.  Only long distance trains don´t go through there anymore.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 09:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, uh. I first wrote about connecting commuter lines in the rapid transit section, then mentioned it again in the 'not entirely new idea' part on RER, and tried to paint the RER's express subway quality as the speciality. On the other hand, indeed Madrid is not a city of ten million with half a dozen termini, so main station connections don't make a network alone. Again on the other hand, even though all Paris RER lines go underground at terminal stations, lines A, C and (in the future) E do so only at one end, and connect back to old commuter lines well beyond terminals.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 10:12:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Cercanias map is not a geographic one, but I see it as circular versus north-south.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 09:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there are two lines around the loop with no true circular line, and six lines go from Atocha to Nuevos Ministerios.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 09:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as Mayor not 'Major'.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 06:36:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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