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AS usual, a few comments expanded as I looked into the issues :-)

I don't like to rain on your parade, but I must mention some serious problems I have with your text. There seems to be something of a romanticising of poverty; e.g. This is not good advice:


One of our group was an Environmental Health Officer for a Scottish local authority. Most of the places I ate in or bought food from would have been shut down by environmental health in the UK. Flies all over the place, raw meat left out in the open air, food left over the heat of a fire for hours. Outside, cutlery and crockery unlikely to have been cleaned with anything more than dirty, day old soapy water.  I never got ill once, the food was gorgeous and incredibly cheap and very quick to make. The more run down and battered looking the stall or the bar, the better the quality of food. People are more likely to get stomach upsets from the spiciness rather than from food poisoning.

 What's the evidence for the last claim? You were lucky that you didn't get ill, many do, some seriously, a few die:

Diarrheal diseases(*) have been a major public health problem in Thailand for many years(1) (see Figure 1). Food is considered as a main route of transmission of microorganisms causing diarrheal diseases. There are approximately a million cases of acute diarrhea reported each year, and the reported cases of food poisoning are more than 120,000 per year(2).
...
The most recent report from Bureau of Epidemiology indicates that there are 146,325 cases of acute diarrhea; 2,421 cases of dysentery; 17,128 cases of food poisoning; and 797 cases of enteric fever (4 deaths)(2). (Data from 1 January to 29 March 2004)
The investigation of these reported cases show that consumption of microbial contaminated drinking water and food is the major cause of the diseases in Thailand. Diarrheal diseases are usually found among those living in poor environmental sanitation and those with poor personal hygiene. The disease incidence in children under five years of age is also reported high.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/meeting/006/ad703e/ad703e00.htm

And the Thai government has intervened to impose regulation, which you seem to be opposed to, but which may have helped you avoid illness.

An effective epidemiological system focusing on active surveillance on food borne diseases in the high-risk areas has been implemented. Thailand has a special team composed of epidemiologists, sanitation personnel, health education personnel, and personnel from Department of Disease Control, working cooperatively in both district and provincial levels to effectively prevent and control the diseases. This team will give a prompt response to investigate the source of diarrheal disease cases and/or outbreaks, and try to control the outbreaks within 10 days(3).
`Programme for Prevention and Control of Diarrheal Diseases' is aimed for the reduction of morbidity and mortality rate of the diseases, especially the incident rate of diarrheal diseases in children under five years of age.

Ibid.

Similarly I think your example of happy family life is also to be discouraged:

 This picture sums up my favourite aspect of Bangkok; it's social nature, food being cooked on the streets on little stalls, the bustle of the markets and the contrast it brings to those overfamiliar Western regulations and sterility. It wasn't unusual to see an entire family including young babies all piled onto the back of a motorbike.  It was rare to see anyone wearing helmets.

Maybe you'd have changed your mind if you'd seen one kid with his brains spilled over the road.
There was a programme in TV recently about Nigeria and the increased use of motor-bikes and the lack of traffic regulation and a local surgeon spoke about the increase in victims of traffic accidents, about 70 % (I think he said) were those on motorbikes. I'm sure that if the Thai parents had a choice, they would prefer that their children were transported in cars which conform in recent safety standards - or better still, good public transport systems.

Your idea that regulation leads to a "sterile" culture echoes corporate propaganda against regulation, especially in the US, which gets in the way of maximising profits. Even in the UK food is still far from "sterile":

The Consumers' Association (CA) has launched a campaign for safer food - as food poisoning cases continue to rise. There has been a four-fold increase in reported food poisoning cases in the last 20 years. Last year 97,000 cases were reported.

But the CA, which surveyed 1,000 members of the public, says the problem could be much worse as many people fail to report their illness. This could be partly due to the fact that some food poisoning bugs can take several days to take effect - so by the time the patient feels ill, they cannot pinpoint a cause.
There is also concern that doctors are failing in their legal duty to report all food poisoning cases to the local health authority.

The CA estimates that the real number of food poisoning cases could be 30 times as high as the official figure. It says the fact that so many cases go unreported mean that the food industry has been allowed to get away with bad practice.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/912496.stm


To be fair you do mention the possible role of poverty :

If the Western world developed a climate like Thailand's over the next few decades, we wouldn't be able to adapt and live and work with the climate in the way that they do. We'd hide inside in air conned offices and shops and houses, air conned SUVs, and continue to deny the need for a change in lifestyle.  It made me wonder if poverty forces people to adapt in this way though.

Well, yes, rather obviously poverty does force them - in many of the hot and "poor but happy" countries, and I'm sure that most of them, given the chance, would opt for refrigerators, air-con, etc., just as the Chinese middle classes in the hotter areas of China are now doing, thus adding to climate change problems.

The poverty aspect might have become more evident if you HAD seen something of the sex tourism in the country :

The internal traffic of Thai females consists mostly of 12-16 year olds from hill tribes of the North/ NorthEast. Most of the internally trafficked girls are sent to closed brothels, which operate under prison-like conditions. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
...
Experts fear a resurgence of commercial sexual exploitation, child prostitution and human trafficking across the region because Thailand's economic meltdown has doubled unemployment to more than two million people; pay cuts have reduced living standards for millions more and the government has cut social security funding. Experts warn conditions are ripe for sex traffickers - "job brokers" who sell women and girls to brothels in Thailand and overseas. ("Survival the name of the game," Bangkok Post, 3 July 1998)
...
Close to 300 million dollars is transferred yearly to rural families by women engaged in prostitution in urban areas, a sum that in many cases exceeds the budgets of government-funded development programs. Between 1993 and 1995, it is estimated that prostitution in Thailand produced an annual income of between 22.5 and 27 billion dollars. (Dario Agnote, "Sex trade key part of S.E. Asian economies, study says," Kyodo News, 18 August 1998)

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/thailand.htm

Even the particular variant of Buddhism, it has been argued, has played a role, as well as the Thai government's economic policy:

The traditional emphasis on polygamy in Theravade Buddhist society is said to have fostered the widespread practice of commercial sex work in Thailand today. Polygamy was outlawed 1n 1935 but ist still practised today - formally through men having more than one wife and informally through visting CSWs ( Commercial Sex Workers). Thailand's current economic development model has also served to institutionalize sex as a commodity and womens bodies as easily obtainable objects of consumption.

http://www.hangoverguide.com/over/factbook/th_sexindustry.html

And, what a surprise, US foreign policy played an important role too:

The Vietnam War (The American War)

The enormous scale of Thailand's sex industry today is largely a result of the American War in Vietnam. In the 1960s US Military bases began to proliferate in Thailand, and many young women were induced into the sex industry by their families and profiteers, as the high demand of US servicemen coalesced with the needs of Thailand's impoverished villages - eventualy leading to the acceptance of prostitution as a source of income for young women.

ibid.




Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 at 03:43:48 PM EST
Fair points, Ted.  Although in some cases you have taken an extreme interpretation of my comments that weren't intended in the writing.

True to say I was probably lucky that I didn't get ill - but I did point out that most conditions around the food are poor, that environmental health wouldn't allow it in the UK.  Fair to ask where the evidence was for my comment about spices causing stomach upsets rather than food poisoning - it came from our tour guide and she was referring to tourists rather than to Thai people. The comment about quality of food vs quality of surroundings came from the Lonely Planet guidebook, mostly in the context of restaurants though.  It's a reasonably instinctive thing as a tourist to only drink bottled water/fluids and to be fairly careful about food.  I did avoid meat and fish on the outdoor stalls (because of the conditions I described), although I ate just about anything from the restaurants.

I also pointed out poor sanitation and mentioned the state of the river/canal water and the overcrowded and dirty conditions that people live in. I made the point about the stark contrast of the way that people lived in the different areas of the city.  I found the impact of poverty there quite hard to articulate effectively. But it is also my intention to discuss poverty in more detail in my diary on the Hill Tribes.

My comment about regulation was more aimed at the contrast with regulation to the point that we are familiar with at home, I'm not against regulation - I'm certainly not trying to echo corporate propaganda against regulation as you suggest. I'm a unionist, most of my working life is spent trying to protect people's rights and that includes health and safety.
But fair enough to criticise the way I have chosen to phrase some aspects of the diary, I should have thought more widely about possible interpretations.

Perhaps I should have made explicit in the diary that I was actually really shocked by the fact that families were piled onto motorbikes, but I felt that was implied by the image itself. That's my automatic reaction to seeing/reading it. I saw a woman waving her baby around while the bike was moving and I was horrified.  I was attempting to draw some contrasts in the text but clearly didn't make some points as well as I could.

By the social nature of that photo, I was referring to the way that people were being friendly and chatting and that children often seem fairly involved and are well socialised.  I wasn't trying to say I think it's wonderful to see tiny children on dodgy motorbikes.

Thanks for finding the stats and making the time to comment so thoroughly and I hope I've been able to address some of your concerns in this response.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 at 05:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Fair points, Ted.  Although in some cases you have taken an extreme interpretation of my comments that weren't intended in the writing."

Thanks for taking the comments in the spirit in which  they were intended, as constructive criticism, and for clarifying some points. I  agree with others that your writing is very evocative, but, as an ex-academic I tend to be a bit pedantic about clarity and evidence :-)  and some of your text was rather amibiguous (given what you now say)and open to "extreme intpretation".

"True to say I was probably lucky that I didn't get ill - but I did point out that most conditions around the food are poor, that environmental health wouldn't allow it in the UK."

Yes, but you did continue that paragraph as if refuting this:

 I never got ill once, the food was gorgeous and incredibly cheap and very quick to make. The more run down and battered looking the stall or the bar, the better the quality of food. People are more likely to get stomach upsets from the spiciness rather than from food poisoning.  

  "Fair to ask where the evidence was for my comment about spices causing stomach upsets rather than food poisoning - it came from our tour guide and she was referring to tourists rather than to Thai people."

Maybe you should have said it was the tour guide's claim and been a bit sceptical - and tourits are at least as likely as Thais (who've built up some resistance) to get food poisoning ;

"The comment about quality of food vs quality of surroundings came from the Lonely Planet guidebook, mostly in the context of restaurants though."

Maybe that should have been attributed too and noted that it's  a possibly romanticised view.

 "It's a reasonably instinctive thing as a tourist to only drink bottled water/fluids and to be fairly careful about food.  I did avoid meat and fish on the outdoor stalls (because of the conditions I described), although I ate just about anything from the restaurants."

But then you do say :

The more run down and battered looking the stall or the bar, the better the quality of food » - without excluding meat and fish.

"I also pointed out poor sanitation and mentioned the state of the river/canal water and the overcrowded and dirty conditions that people live in. I made the point about the stark contrast of the way that people lived in the different areas of the city.  I found the impact of poverty there quite hard to articulate effectively."

But again you went on to add :

Maybe not the best first impression of Bangkok or Thailand, and I think it was one that some of my fellow travellers found too much. Most of them concluded that they didn't especially like Bangkok, and wouldn't wish to go back.  I, on the other hand, loved it.

Which does tend to suggest that the poverty didn't worry you that much.

"But it is also my intention to discuss poverty in more detail in my diary on the Hill Tribes."

I look forward to reading it.

"My comment about regulation was more aimed at the contrast with regulation to the point that we are familiar with at home, I'm not against regulation - I'm certainly not trying to echo corporate propaganda against regulation as you suggest. I'm a unionist, most of my working life is spent trying to protect people's rights and that includes health and safety."

Glad to hear it , but honestly I wouldn't have guessed that from what you actually said and the use of "sterility" suggests a negative view about the use of regulation, and,  as I pointed out, even regulation here is arguably inadequate in many fields, and regulation can even allow diversity to flourish.

"But fair enough to criticise the way I have chosen to phrase some aspects of the diary, I should have thought more widely about possible interpretations."

Well, from all the other reactions you got, little need to worry, and it is very difficult to be aware of one's own assumptions about what others will understand. When I made students check others' interpretations of their work, they were often very surprised and sometimes dismayed at the variety of intertations, some of them almost completely opposite to what they thought they had obviously communicated.

"Perhaps I should have made explicit in the diary that I was actually really shocked by the fact that families were piled onto motorbikes, but I felt that was implied by the image itself. That's my automatic reaction to seeing/reading it. I saw a woman waving her baby around while the bike was moving and I was horrified.  I was attempting to draw some contrasts in the text but clearly didn't make some points as well as I could.
By the social nature of that photo, I was referring to the way that people were being friendly and chatting and that children often seem fairly involved and are well socialised.  I wasn't trying to say I think it's wonderful to see tiny children on dodgy motorbikes"

Photos are more open to varied intrpretation than most text, and when you say :

This picture sums up my favourite aspect of Bangkok.

It's hard to think that you were "horrified".- better to have said so, to show your ambivalent attitude.

"Thanks for finding the stats and making the time to comment so thoroughly and I hope I've been able to address some of your concerns in this response."

Personal responses to places are interesting and obviously a lot of people like your style, but you might consider including a few quotations and stats of the kind I gave. They can (I'm not asserting there's only one way :-) ) give a deeper understanding of a place - and complement one's own immediate impressions and images. But I know how much time such diaries with iamges can take, with adding research too :-)  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 11:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted I find your comments very interesting, but I must say I hope that In Wales will keep her stile of writing an journal of her travels. It would loose if it becomes to academic. I enjoyed reading her personal impressions and experiences. If there should be research added I think that would belong in a separate diary. I do like it that we also have diaries on ET that touch more the right-side of the brain. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 12:09:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First, I did say that obviously many people enjoyed it, and I hesitated to criticise it. But one of the good things about this forum is that one can have honest disagreements and intelligent discussions about them. InWales has said that on reflection some things don't really express accurately how she felt about some of the things she saw; understandable given the work involved and the other important demands on her time.

Also it's not a case of either/or - purely personal reflections or impersonal academic studies. If some of the points I made are "interesting", perhaps some of them would complement and add to her diary. Some of the most popular travel writers manage to combine personal observation with some background facts without losing popularity or sales, e.g. Bill Bryson:

"Bryson tours Australia by car and train, visiting the larger cities, the outback, the tropical rainforest, and every tourist attraction he can find. He recounts both his travels and information about Australia - its creatures, its history, its people - in his usual humorous, personal style, displaying his great affection for the area in the process. This is perhaps his most charming and amusing book to date."
Ivy, Resident Scholar

http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/Info_4394.asp

As to right-left brain differences, that's been questioned by fairly recent research (those academics again :-))


'Right Brain' or 'Left Brain' -  Myth Or Reality?
By John McCrone

... Such brain-aching complexities mean that this new line in hemispheric research is still in its early days. But at least there seems no prospect of a return to the old left-right caricatures that inspired so many self-help books exhorting people to liberate their right brains and avoid too much sterile left-brain thinking. As Fink says, whatever the story about lateralisation, simple dichotomies are out. It is how the two sides of the brain complement and combine that counts.

  http://www.rense.com/general2/rb.htm

I.e. it's not either/or again :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 07:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted, I absolutely agree with you! This is what I tried to teach to my students and clients for decades - it's all about balance. However, I think it is not necessary that each diary has this balance. The way I see it, ET has more left-side, analytical topics, which are needed for the purpose of the site and thus some colorful right-brain topics and diaries are a good balance.

Genius to me is being able to use both sides in a balanced way, being able to access the side that is more helpful to do the job at hand. For me one of the best examples for this is DaVinci. And I am also aware that this is over-simplification, but words are often a limitation to explain ideas - they are to two-dimensional, whereas ideas are multidimensional.

And thanks for the interesting links.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 4th, 2007 at 12:15:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran, I'm not trying to be difficult, but you're still using the left/right brain "topics" model, which was rejected in the last quotation in my previous comment (it's from the New Scientist, 2000).

I didn't say the diary HAD to be "balanced" betweeen these caricatured types. I merely suggested SOME background information might have helped clarify some of her own observations and feelings (after all, as she indicates, she had read at least some of the Lonely Planet guide to Thailand). Even just one or two facts might have been useful support for some of her personal observations.

IN my reply to her reply I actually said:

Personal responses to places are interesting and obviously a lot of people like your style, but you might consider including a few quotations and stats of the kind I gave...(I'm not asserting there's only one way :-) ) ...

This would not fundamentally alter the nature of the diary, with its emphasis on personal expeience and photos. But it's her diary, her choice and evidently many people liked it. However it does seem that she acknowledges that some of what she wrote  didn't really reflect her feelings - due to other pressures at the time of writing it. I was trying to help her see how some of her points seemed to romantise poverty (it's now clear that this is not what she wanted to do), and how this was misleading, given some facts about Thailand.

I was not prescribing exactly how she should write her diaries, nor suggesting they should be "balanced" between socio-economic analysis and personal impressions. Bryson manages to include some background information about the places he visits in a very painless way in the context of a lot of highly personal impressions - often very amusing.

Genius to me is being able to use both sides in a balanced way, being able to access the side that is more helpful to do the job at hand. For me one of the best examples for this is DaVinci.

I don't accept the sides view of the brain, see above, and most human thinking seems to involve both local and general functioning of the brain.

 And I am also aware that this is over-simplification, but words are often a limitation to explain ideas - they are to two-dimensional, whereas ideas are multidimensional.

I'm not sure I understand the latter point, and, to the extent that I do, I don't accept it - some ideas are two-dimensional, e.g. that the left and right sides of the brain function in radically different and largely independent ways :-)  And some words are "multi-dimensional", e.g. "democracy", "love", etc.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 at 08:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I replied to this and the computer timed out and lost the comment.

I'll try to remember what I wrote later, but I need to get home now.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 01:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trying to remember my response but it won't be quite so detailed.

As you point out, this is my personal response on my own impressions of Thailand - it was never intended to be an academic evaluation of the socio-economic conditions of Bangkok.

I spent a full day on the diary and photos and much as I would like to have added more depth I just didn't have more time. As it is, that is one day less on my PhD thesis when I have my supervisor on my back about it and if I have to commit an entire day or more to every diary, then I would never put any up.

I made a poor choice using the word 'sterility', as you keep coming back to. I had intended to take it out but forgot to by the time I tried to proof read it all. It was purely there for the sentence flow, but ended up being overanalysed and given a meaning that is actually entirely at odds with my own views.
What I failed to articulate properly was that the massive contrasts between life on UK streets and life on the streets of Thailand, I attribute greatly towards the lack of regulation in Thailand. The norms over there such as seeing whole families piled onto the back of a motorbike are so incredibly different to what you see in the UK and that really stuck in my brain.

It's also unfair to suggest that the poverty didn't worry me that much. I can see how the conclusion is drawn since that sentence about loving bangkok immediately follows the comment about poverty, but that is poor structuring - I moved bits around so much that I failed to see that.  By saying I love Bangkok, I was referring to the fascinating contrasts, the hugely different lifestyles and the way that people have adapted, and to the fact that I had barely scratched the surface and wanted to be able to spend more time there in order to gain greater depth of understanding.

Thanks for the comments and I will try to take them on board in future diaries.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 03:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" it was never intended to be an academic evaluation of the socio-economic conditions of Bangkok."

And I never suggested that it should be - see reply to Fran, and Bryson's way of presenting a few interesting and enlightening facts in the context of his amusing accounts of his personal experiences.

I did say I understood the amount of time taken to put together such diaries with lots of photos together.

Good luck with the PhD.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 at 07:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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