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some argue that human population is a "linear" function of food supply. More presicely perhaps, it is a function of energy supply. The explosion of the 20th century did not coincide with breakthrough agricultural innovations, but rather with growth of energy availability (which, in turn, did allow for for extensive agriculture).

On the other hand,

There is a significant complication in this, however... [the] world's richest nations are growing by the smallest percentages. [If] population is a function of food supply, why is the most significant growth taking place in those areas producing the least food?

Of course, the ecological footprint of the First world countries increases just as much as energy availability allows. But what does it say about human nature? When living is good, does reproduction become a lesser priority? Do we turn into competition by numbers when things are tough?

by das monde on Fri Jun 8th, 2007 at 11:23:20 PM EST
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The normal course of events is the Armed Forces requisition (i.e., steal) food from the producers and distribute it to themselves, the ruling elites, and city dwellers.  If the producers resist "contributing to the Greater Good" the Armed Forces shoot them.  
by ATinNM on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 at 12:14:07 AM EST
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Counter-culturally, I still believe that the usually supposed role of Armed Forces requisition is overestimated in extreme situations. At some moment, robbery costs is gonna outweight benefits. For sustainable robbery you have to do your harvests more carefully. Angry mob gives no profit. The blessed countries will be those where people start to cooperate and care for each other (for the ultimate outliving purpose) sooner rather than later.
by das monde on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 at 12:39:49 AM EST
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Acquiring food by force is an extremely tempting short-term tactic--the US Executive has already given Executive Orders for plans to do this--that rapidly leads to a severe overall reduction in food.  It is one of the fast-track down scenerios in the process of collapse.  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 at 01:35:56 AM EST
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It is one of the fast-track down scenerios in the process of collapse.

Exactly. This is not the way to overcome a tough on skin change.

by das monde on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 at 01:59:18 AM EST
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Off the top of my head I can think of the French and Russian Revolutions where this happened.  It also happened in the US during the 30s with a bit of a twist: the Federal goverment came to farms and shot livestock in order to reduce the supply to bring the price of the remaining animals coming to market.  

didn't work.

The cost of this robbery is - as you say - it makes the problem worse.  Especially when they confiscate the seed needed for the next growing season.  

The blessed countries will be those where people start to cooperate and care for each other (for the ultimate outliving purpose) sooner rather than later.

I absolutely agree.  

And I'd better stop here before I start using the ... shudder ... "S" word.  

;-)

by ATinNM on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 at 01:57:58 AM EST
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once you have a little vertical castle of possessions to worry about, it becomes apparent that too many kids 'gets in the way' of patrolling the perimeter and adding to the stash.

thus the high level of neurosis in children of rich families.

the converse: if you have nothing to lose, why be sexually responsible?

there is even a market for selling your kids into slavery in very poor countries, that good invisible hand at work.

having kids in a modern society, rife with upwardly mobile fragmented families, is hard, ego-shattering work, add granma living in another town, less aunts and cousins, etc, and the post-industrial substitution of (probably hypothetical) pensions for the old paradigm support of younger family members.

nature makes millions of sperm to create very few children, dispassionately i see no logical reason that scale of waste should not extrapolate to human populations, and the deciding factor keeping so many (often half)-alive so long has indeed been the technology fix of being able to plunder and waste resources as if there were no tomorrow...

yes....and the irony is that it's emerging that if we did have an intelligent world socialism as operating system of governance, we might even be able to support larger world populations, more efficiently and with a much higher quotient of happiness.

there is a small but very determined portion of our species that is resisting this change, and either they or all of us are doomed, punto basta.

what we need is a new global sense of responsibility, and i see it a-birthing in many places, not least right here at ET.

fantastic discussion, thanks all.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 at 05:00:45 AM EST
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