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We know the statistics. We know the worst that can happen (Tchernobyl) and we know that counting by loss of life and damage to property

Unfortunately for your argument, both the statistics and the magnitude of the Chernobyl disaster are hotly contested, with opinions differing in orders of magnitude; I dealt with the Chernobyl numbers game in a rather long diary on the 20th anniversary here on ET.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 05:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know about your upper estimates, I read your diary. I still contend that these numbers are low when compared to the size of the population sample (hundreds of millions) and the duration considered (decades). Other causes of death, will all give fatalities that are in the  millions over such times and populations. This dwarfs the impact of chernobyl. And coal or diesel pollutions over the same length of time and the same population is also in the same ballpark. I think you have an irreconcilable bias of analysis vs me on this subject, a bias common amongst nuke opponents, and it verges on scaremongering the numerically illiterate masses.

Of course, you can call me a big nuke puppet (which I'm not) and a despiseful elitist technocrat (which I am) if you wish.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 06:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you both appear to have biases and each of you believe that you're being objective.

Is there an obvious summary of the range of estimates available?

What I'd love to see is a range of estimates of the dangers of including nuclear power in the energy generation mix vs. the dangers of not including it, neglecting the bizarro land belief that we will choose to kill technological civilisation and move to some bucolic utopia rather than kill tens of millions of people through global warming and coal fired electrical generation, because we won't - and the transition to that utopia would kill hundreds of millions.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 06:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there an obvious summary of the range of estimates available?


Stupid Colman. Now, where's that diary hiding?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 06:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Refer to Jerome's How can we talk rationally about nuclear energy? (March 27th, 2007)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 06:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My diary attempted to give an overview of the claims on Chernobyl. But Pierre argues that even the high estimates are low for him.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 06:55:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, there is no short term "danger" in not including nuclear in the energy mix. This is why I do not advocate a crash program to expand nuclear power everywhere: it is the best path to disaster, as the engineering base is depleted right now, quality assurance is paramount in nuclear, and clearly nuclear should not be expanded vastly until reactor technologies based on thorium and breeding are matured, probably not before two decades.

However, there is a danger on the long term, in phasing out the plants (and henceforth, the operating expertise), and stopping development of new generations. It is a technology with very long lead times. We cannot predict with certainty that we won't need it in 20-30 years. Renewables are on a fast growth curve and can go on like that for 30 years, but we cannot be sure about minimal demand.

What I mean is: even with conservation (and certainly demand destruction), total electricity demand may increase due to a crash switch to PHEV, heat pump heating (now installed in 6% of new houses build in France, so it is really taking off)... And demand for non-fossil heat could come from seawater desalination if we have dramatic changes in rainfall patterns.

We have no guarantee that renewables alone can cope with both nuclear/fossil phase-out, and those new demands. Quite the contrary I think for the 20-30 yrs term.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 08:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I never called you names, nor intend to. I respect your arguments, especially the willingness to go into details.

I also try to keep my points more limited, e.g. I cast doubt at is your claim that we know the risks well, rather than settle down for a figure or a comparison with the risks of a rival technology.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 06:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nukes are a lottery problem - the chances of a payout are very, very small, but the payout itself is potentially very, very big. (In a negative sense, naturally.)

That makes it very hard to quantify risks accurately.

If the Windscale fire problem hadn't been solved, it's likely that much of the Midlands would now be uninhabitable. You can more or less get a way with an accident like that in Russia. In Europe, population densities are somewhat higher and the prospect of losing large sections of a country aren't appealing.

So it's not just imputed fatalities, clearly. The overall risk has to include the extremely small - but not quite zero - prospect of a more serious accident.

As everyone else has been saying, the sanest way to assess the risks is to look at governmental competence and corporate culture.

From that point of view, nukes are politically demanding. If insurers don't want to insure them, it could be as much because they know that the political stability and oversight required to minimise risks isn't there, as because they're worried that any trial will be railroaded by hordes of angry chanting hippies wearing sunflowers.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 09:39:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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