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I've also been invited to a dinner of the sort (on the 3rd, I think) by a labor organsation. Presumably they want to talk to those bloggers they have identified as writing on labor issues (even if occasionally) on dKos.

The rarity of that topic (like that of poverty and inequality), and the lack of concern of kossack for union issues is one of the great mysteries of that site.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 03:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you get an email from Tasini?  That's who mine came from.

Went into my "Manfrommiddletown" box which I only check maybe once a week if I'm not expecting mail.

I need to just give up on that, and start giving out my "real" email to people I might be in contact with.  That involves a certain loss of anonymity though, and I've got this firewall between my offline world and what I do here.

Back to this dinner, I take it both an an honor, that I was among those who they identified for this, and a disappointment that we are such a small group.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could set up an anonymous account which forwards mail to your main account. That way you don't miss messages. I don't know is lycos email can do this. I know gmail does.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I take it both an an honor, that I was among those who they identified for this, and a disappointment that we are such a small group.

I guess I feel the same; plus a bit worried that someone like me who is not really qualified to write about the topic, but only broaches indirectly via macroeconomic considerations, is seen as an important writer on the subject. I feel like a fraud.

I have read recently an article written after the first YK about how Labor had taken bloggers seriously, supported YK (including with money and a real presence at the conference) but the kossacks did not really reciprocate

Here it is:


What Was Missing At YearlyKos (In These Times)

By Christopher Hayes

YearlyKos made it clear that the netroots is a vanguard--a smart, savvy, compassionate and courageous vanguard, but a vanguard nonetheless. There's nothing wrong with vanguards, but they do not a majority make.

(...)

But Lou possessed something missing from the conference, namely--not to put too fine a point on it--a critique of capitalism. In his union days, Lou said, he'd urged his local officers to use some of the union's pension and strike funds to actually buy part of the company. "That's real unionism," he said. "We've never tried that here in the United States. Now they'll tell you that's Marxism, but that's just because the American people have been brainwashed into thinking that Capital is more important than Labor. But it's Labor that creates all wealth!"

You didn't hear talk like that at Yearly Kos. Nothing even close. The panel on "Labor and Power" drew a meager crowd of 40 people, tops. Next door, the "blogosphere expert" panel was packed. UNITE HERE's political director Chris Chafe seemed dismayed. "If we don't have this room filled to capacity at the next YearlyKos convention then we're all going to lose," he said.

In a post on DailyKos after the convention, labor expert Nathan Newman wrote, "The labor movement actually took YearlyKos very seriously, contributing money to help subsidize costs and sending top leaders to attend the sessions. ... I know that the labor leaders were a bit frustrated that their interest in the blogosphere was not reciprocated."




In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got the same feeling about labor support for Yearlykos.

And to be honest, I feel in many ways that DailyKos just isn't the place to formulate a valid ideology for the Left.  To return to my beloved Weberian categories.  It is concerned primarly with the formal,  which is to say the procedural matters of gettings Democrats elected, rather than the substantive, which is to say what the hell is is that we are fighting for.

I had (and have diminshed) hopes for Open Left a community site put together by MyDD's Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller.  They were explicit that they wanted to focus beyond the narrow lense of the Democratic Party into the politics of the Left.  The "netroots" has been too narrowly focused on the formal, while ignoring the substantive.

Jerome, you're not a fraud, or no more so than I.  I still feel like a one eyed man leading the blind when it comes to writing on Labor history, and contemporary labor issues.  And more so, I write a lot about ineqaulity, which is different than poverty, and a lot more likely to piss people off.

Most Kossacks don't know Pareto optimality formally, but the concept is central to their understanding of the world. And the idea that in theoretical terms, their are deeper social forces than they mamiximization of utility, and more meaningfully that increased inequality is still harmful in the context of reduced poverty is beyond them.

It's easy to run a campaign against poverty, but running a campaign against inequality?

I only hope that there's a man who can do that.

And there's only one running for president that I think just might try.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:53:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And to be honest, I feel in many ways that DailyKos just isn't the place to formulate a valid ideology for the Left.

No, but it is a place to promulgate  such an ideology.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:56:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you know what happens to missionaries who dare to preach the Gospel to the heathen tribes?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<shrug>

Luckily virtual flames are less final than physical ones.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:59:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless someone tries to do to you what they did to Soj, or Armando (aka Big Tent Democrat.)

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 11:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and the above as a diary?

Please?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 11:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, from what I can gather, there is not a lot of support for unions at Kos.  We can debate why, but I do think class representation is skewed at that site...  Still, I've never understood...

Alternatively, DFA and local Chicago grassroots groups have a long history of working with labor organizations like SEIU.  Mind you, in the US, labor organizations are not homogenous, and are rarely socially progressive...

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read this.

Then maybe you'll understand why I think that the affection for the SEIU from the netroots over traditional industrial unions is telling.  And for precisely the reason you mention.  Skewed class representation.

Also, you realize that the UAW funded the civil rights movemement, and that Martin Luther King was in Memphis to support striking city sanitary workers, right?

That's socially progressive enough for me.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am really talking about contemporary unions.  I am in the Teamsters and they are not progressive enough for me.  I won't even get involved in my union...

You can say what you want about SEIU, but all I know is that show up.  They show up for our events, our candidates, etc.  They work with us on progressive issues.  Instead of working with the corrupt Daley administration to get bids.  I mean, we are talking about the difference between progressive activists and organized crime.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not all Teamster's locals are corrupt, and I don't think that all are involved in organized crime.

The problem with the SEIU, is that they have this record of dropping in college educated organizers into leadership positions after ousting the elected leadership.  And at in California, there's a whole paper trail of them signing contracts that don't allow strikes, or for healthcare workers to report medical mistreatment to the authorities.

About the SEIU, I'm trying to say that they have a poor record on union democracy, which is to say raising leadership from the ranks.  The Teamsters have the same problem with the leadership at the national meddling in the affairs of the locals.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I can understand why you were invited to that dinner!  LOL.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the lack of concern of kossack for union issues is one of the great mysteries of that site.

See (for example) Helen's occasional rants here against unions in order to understand. It may go along with the disdain for Marx and the use of "Marxist" as a pejorative - which I recently forgot on BT recently to my great confusion.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on Colman, don't you know that class doesn't exist in America?

The whole Marxist thing is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

One of the pecularities of the United States in the context of the industrialized world is that we have this (asinine) belief that class is no inherited and that through hard work all can own a million dollar mansion, etc, etc....

The irony again (it's that time in the morning, so everything is ironic) is that even though the concept of inherited class as a fundamental determinant of personal success or failure,  I.e. your father works in a factory, therefore so will you. (I was actually told this while in high school, as part of an explanation for why a teacher assumed I had cheated when she graded a paper of mine that she though I had plagarized.  Class is just as real as race in America, and far more blatant in the way it is used to discriminate, alas that's a whole other conversation.)

The irony again is that even though Americans don't acknowledge the existence of inherited class, that's the reality of our society. (Follow the link, it's a pdf of a report that shatters any illusion that America is a classless society.) Note the difference between the graphic on pg. 2 illustrating the American belief in social mobility, and the first graph one pg. 5 showing that in fact Europeans on whole (God bless the UK for breaking the rule) are far, far more socially mobile than Americans.  

I appreciate this section of the report:

relative mobility can occur regardless of what is happening to the society as a whole. Individuals can change their position relative to others, moving up or down within the ranks as one would expect in a true meritocracy. To illustrate the importance of relative mobility, consider three hypothetical societies with identical distributions of wealthy, poor, and middle-class citizens:

* The meritocratic society. Those who work the
hardest and have the greatest talent, regardless of
class, gender, race, or other characteristics, have the
highest income.

* The "fortune cookie" society. Where one ends
up bears no relation to talent or energy, and is purely
a matter of luck.

* The class-stratified society. Family background is
all-important -- children end up in the same relative
position as their parents. Mobility between classes is
little to nonexistent.

Americans sincerely believe that we live in a meritocratic society, where individuals get what they had coming.  Therefore, if you're 35 and trapped in working a job where you don't earn enough to support your family, it's clearly your fault.  Poverty, thus becomes a sign of moral failure.  (The complex interrelationship between religion and economics, thus become more important. And you have what are basically large businesses in these evangelical churches that preach a prosperity gospel.  God does good things for those who are faithful, so it you praise Jesus, and pass the collection plate, you too might one day be a rich man.)

Class is much more than income, it's about status in society. And the reduction of class to a matter of income in the United States is reflective to just how pervasive the market ethic is.  I'm fundamentally a believer in what Bordieu had to say about cultural capital.  Status comes in many forms.  It's something that even the most ardent neo-liberal will recognize.  Martin Wolf was in the FT about a month back saying that by allowing elites in industrialized countries from seeking distinction in terms of how much money they earn relative to "common" workers, we diffuse the tendency to seek distinction through cultural concerns that  may lead to ethnic conflict or war.....

Now he seemed to miss the flipside of this, which is that it seems entirely plausible that when the great masses of a nation are told that they are equal to all others but economic realities conflict with this, they might seek out distinction through religion and culture.  Hence, the United States, and the concurrent growth of inequality and relgious fundamentalism.

It's the "I may be poor, but at least I'm not a ......" (Insert your favorited racial or relgious epithet.)  Remeber that Americans are quite willing to question the status of the rich based upon moral matters.  (Hence the odd fascination with the latest antics of Paris Hilton.) It confirms in a sense that although Paris Hilton is wealthy without having worked for it, at least we know that when she dies (drug overdose anyone?) she will burn in hell.  Therefore, although she is rich in material terms, and I poor, in matters of status, I am wealth because I am morally superior to that blonde .....

I think I've made my point.  And you see, once you get to the bottom of it, it demolished alot of the sacred cows in Anglo-American popular discourse.  

I've got to stop with the caffeine in the morning, it's clearly having an effect.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've got to stop with the caffeine in the morning, it's clearly having an effect.

Tea or coffee? If it encourages you to write like that we'll ship some over.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually forgot the point I started with.

Which was that the second stereotype used against labor in the United States, is that they are in some way tainted by organized crime.

Both steretypes have some basis in truth, with the old Teamsters and East Coast Longshoreman (circa 1950) having a variety of connections to the Mafia.  And the West Coast Longshoreman having been laced through throughly with Communist sympathizers.  It didn't really help that Walther Reuther, one of the greats of the UAW (Autoworkers) spent 2 years in Gorkii working at an autoplant with his brother in the 1930's.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:19:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I forgot this:

I was actually told this while in high school, as part of an explanation for why a teacher assumed I had cheated when she graded a paper of mine that she though I had plagarized

<goggle>

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:26:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is front page material.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:22:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll do it as a blockquote.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:24:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It should be diaried on Daily Kos.

Or maybe not. As it won't help get Democrats elected, it would just be concern trolling.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll put together something, and post here today. (Probably just a direct lifting from here.

I want to  flesh it out a little thouhg for Daily Kos.

I'm certain that there will be a lot of defending it from misperceptions though.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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