European Tribune

Display:
I'm unaccountably unhappy with this story: something about it smells, and the involvement of Open Europe in pushing it doesn't increase my confidence in it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's consistent with what we know about the European Council and the European Commission, and the Commission's "communication" strategy.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, to further increase your unhappiness - the Telegraph has picked this up too - however the audio file removed all of my doubts - this was indeed said.

I further note that Valery Giscard d'Estaing, pretty much said the same thing yesterday:

"Why not have a single text?" he asked. "The only reason is that this would look too much like the constitutional treaty," he said, with French and Dutch voters rejecting the constitution in 2005 referendums.

"Making cosmetic changes would make the text more easy to swallow."



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:42:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I think I understand, and if I'm right I'm going to get very, very, very angry.

What they're complaining about is that the new treaty does not merge all the existing treaties into a single document. Which means that what people are complaining about is that this is not a big omnibus treaty.

What makes me angry is that one of the arguments of the anti-treaty crowd last time was that the treaty was too fucking long precisely because it rolled the other treaties in.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. I've listened to that now, and it's quite clear that what he is complaining about is that the document is be altered from an all encompassing treaty that incorporates the existing treaties to a list of amendments to existing treaties.

Which means that a lot of the anti-treaty people here will get one of their wishes.

I'm afraid this diary seems to have bought the Open Europe spin on the matter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:03:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me be clear: I think its a bad idea to not do a consolidated treaty, though it gave massive scope for the anti-treaty crowd to present stuff from earlier treaties as new, terrible encroachments on sovereignty or whatever and people whined about how hard it all was to understand.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact is, the EU has consolidated all the treaties into one already. I use this version a lot.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:09:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's not a single treaty is it? It's what a single treaty would look like?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but what it means is that the individual treaties are simply amendments to the consolidated treaty. So, in order to understand the amendment treaty one only has to read the two in parallel. The consolidated treaty helps a lot in understanding what's already there. It is, in fact, easier to understand an amending treaty than to go through the existing consolidated treaty and the proposed constitution picking out similarities and differences, because in that case there are no cross-references.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:16:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's true, for experts. On the other hand there is something to be said for having the whole thing in one legal document.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Jerome had a point that many people who opposed the EU Constitution did so because of things that were already in the treaties, while they favoured the amendments.

So it cuts both ways.

Anyway, like I said, when the draft treaty comes out we can pick it apart line by line. We know where the existing consilidated treaty is, and what it means (mostly).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the claim that the treaty will be obscure can be easily addressed by, when the draft is published, picking it apart. I think after a couple of years on this site we have the expertise to do a good job of that, article by article.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We could (and should), and others too surely. But the issue is a. whether the tactic of having it seem like something innocuous might prevent a strong public demand for referenda and b. whether the intention of the Commission to hide the content of its proposals is something that ought to worry us - regardless of whether they succeed or not.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just a question here, and I have no position (nor should you care if I did, I suppose) Why would you want to avoid public referenda.  It seems that would make it more authentic, which might not be the right word, maybe legitimate would me more the concept, if it was approved by the citizens of the nations.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because it is extremely easy for populists to derail referenda, and the EU political elite has basically given up on their ability to win a public debate on the EU. It's quite sad, actually, considering a majority of the people are Europeist. What the people are not is neoliberal, and I think that is the "problem".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually he explicitly states that this sort of approach was chosen so that most citizens would not be able to parse the document. He obviously speaks of a document that would be even more unreadable than the original constitution. Thus the substance remains the same, but now its much more difficult to understand and it can be more easily sold as an "inoccuous" treaty. Whatever Open Europe's motives were on this one. There is no doubt that there is a major issue of accountability involved.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Giscard is largely responsible for the fiasco because he wanted the European Constitution to be the end of his career. He came up with the idea of making the next treaty a "constitution" rather than an ordinary amending treaty. Ultimately, it was about his ego.

So I tend not to pay a lot of attention when he says "they're not doing what I wanted".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series