European Tribune - Comments - You mustn't understand - and further musings on the European project

You mustn't understand - and further musings on the European project | 26 comments (26 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 0)

Yup. I've listened to that now, and it's quite clear that what he is complaining about is that the document is be altered from an all encompassing treaty that incorporates the existing treaties to a list of amendments to existing treaties.

Which means that a lot of the anti-treaty people here will get one of their wishes.

I'm afraid this diary seems to have bought the Open Europe spin on the matter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:03:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 0)

Let me be clear: I think its a bad idea to not do a consolidated treaty, though it gave massive scope for the anti-treaty crowd to present stuff from earlier treaties as new, terrible encroachments on sovereignty or whatever and people whined about how hard it all was to understand.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

The fact is, the EU has consolidated all the treaties into one already. I use this version a lot.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:09:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

But that's not a single treaty is it? It's what a single treaty would look like?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

Yes, but what it means is that the individual treaties are simply amendments to the consolidated treaty. So, in order to understand the amendment treaty one only has to read the two in parallel. The consolidated treaty helps a lot in understanding what's already there. It is, in fact, easier to understand an amending treaty than to go through the existing consolidated treaty and the proposed constitution picking out similarities and differences, because in that case there are no cross-references.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:16:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

That's true, for experts. On the other hand there is something to be said for having the whole thing in one legal document.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

Well, Jerome had a point that many people who opposed the EU Constitution did so because of things that were already in the treaties, while they favoured the amendments.

So it cuts both ways.

Anyway, like I said, when the draft treaty comes out we can pick it apart line by line. We know where the existing consilidated treaty is, and what it means (mostly).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

Well, the claim that the treaty will be obscure can be easily addressed by, when the draft is published, picking it apart. I think after a couple of years on this site we have the expertise to do a good job of that, article by article.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (4.00 / 2)

We could (and should), and others too surely. But the issue is a. whether the tactic of having it seem like something innocuous might prevent a strong public demand for referenda and b. whether the intention of the Commission to hide the content of its proposals is something that ought to worry us - regardless of whether they succeed or not.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

Just a question here, and I have no position (nor should you care if I did, I suppose) Why would you want to avoid public referenda. It seems that would make it more authentic, which might not be the right word, maybe legitimate would me more the concept, if it was approved by the citizens of the nations.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (4.00 / 5)

Because it is extremely easy for populists to derail referenda, and the EU political elite has basically given up on their ability to win a public debate on the EU. It's quite sad, actually, considering a majority of the people are Europeist. What the people are not is neoliberal, and I think that is the "problem".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mustn't understand - and further musings o (none / 1)

Actually he explicitly states that this sort of approach was chosen so that most citizens would not be able to parse the document. He obviously speaks of a document that would be even more unreadable than the original constitution. Thus the substance remains the same, but now its much more difficult to understand and it can be more easily sold as an "inoccuous" treaty. Whatever Open Europe's motives were on this one. There is no doubt that there is a major issue of accountability involved.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You mustn't understand - and further musings on the European project | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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